And the battle is on - CloudOps vs DevOps! Richard debates with Dana Epp about what modern operations looks like. Dana points out that all too often, DevOps is purely a developer-driven initiative for automated continuous delivery pipelines - but there's more to DevOps than that! Meantime there's a group using the CloudOps term as an approach to not bothering with operations at all - let the cloud take care of it! What does the real value of operations looks like today? Do we have to decide between on-premises and cloud? How do we get to be a better team?