Phasing Out Fossil Fuels Over Time

What if climate policy can’t survive voters, courts, and NIMBYs?

Bill McKibben is a pioneering climate writer and activist whose books and campaigns helped mainstream the case for rapidly replacing fossil fuels with clean energy. On today's episode, McKibben and host, Jerusalem Demsas, argue about the politics and economics of climate and discuss his new book Here Comes The Sun.

McKibben's case: sun, wind, and batteries are now the cheapest new power on earth and China is sprinting ahead while America stalls. But Demsas is skeptical about McKibben's political strategy, particularly when it comes to the very live fight in Congress over permitting reform. 

They get into:

• Messaging that wins (“energy” vs. “climate”)
• The politics of transmission
• Carbon capture: necessary for industry or a costly detour?
• Why climate activists are hostile to technological progress
• The global picture: balcony solar in Utah, village microgrids in Africa, and cheap panels vs. imported fuels

The Argument is a podcast dedicated to honest, unflinching debate about the biggest questions facing democracy, culture, and our future. As the host, Jerusalem Demsas brings together voices across the political spectrum to argue, challenge, and persuade. Each episode is a space where disagreements are confronted directly, with clarity and conviction, rather than hidden or shouted down.

We want to hear from you! If you liked the episode, disagreed with it, or have a guest or episode suggestion, reach out at jerusalem@theargumentmag.com.

For a full-length, ad-free version of our podcast, you can become a paid subscriber. You can watch the full version with ads for free by subscribing to our YouTube channel here. The audio version is also available wherever you get your podcasts.

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The Argument podcast with Jerusalem Demsas is available wherever you get podcasts. New shows drop every Monday. If you like the show, leave a comment and ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

Articles, studies, and posts referenced in the episode can be found on our website at https://www.theargumentmag.com/s/the-argument-podcast

The Argument's production team includes Ranjani Chakraborty, Isabella Pereira, Angela Tracy, Eli Richman, and Kate Crawford with music by Breakmaster Cylinder. If you want to hear more of The Argument, you can become a subscriber at The ArgumentMag.com.