The important thing for me is to not go into a conversation expectting certain outcomes. It's just to allow myself to be led by the person that i'm having a conversation with. And then they may well ask questions of me as well. So you're playing a kind of conversational tennis. But it's interesting, the words good and bad. I use these words when interviewing professor elizabeth stoko for the book,. We prefer the word effective or less effective, or ineffective. When i listen, no sory te shingo, no say so, no pressure.

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