Martin: The title of this podcast and the way I got started was to call those voices from the middle. And in particular, I was interested in this position inside organizations that we would call a manager of managers or a director in many cases. So why don't you talk about how you see that and what the unique challenges are making that transition? Martin: One challenge is trying to connect a system together who you're trying to incentivize it to be effective at a higher order goal.