i'm hearing that in unilever and similar sized companies, the brands that we would think were more alined with our values are doing better. There're sub brands t that are basically furst wall, channelling really bad stuff out. How do we get round that? Is there any sign that they're ki about trangey that sort of thing? Yes, because a thing is we're talking about incremental change within a system which is exploitative. And so the question, i guess, is, how do you move? How do you move towards a future, or build a future, where you're not exploiting, but you are allowing people to compete?"

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