that's so interesting and in learning to build you talk about planning from right to left oh yeah I think you read about it in the chapter on causal structures yeah yeah yeah where you think of the left as the beginning and the right as the end does that apply also

to the new work that you're yeah so everything is about being able to understand the outcomes we're trying to get to and so it starts with the whole notion of empathetic perspective of what's it like to actually go find a job now and to be honest having been an entrepreneur seven times I don't really understand what that means and so getting the empathetic perspective and understanding what it means to do it being able to uncover kind of what's the real demand for a new work and one of the things I found out 38 percent of the people that we've talked to or we surveyed around this basically said like how many people would like a new job but haven't really look for it it's like 38 percent of the people are ready to quit if they could find something better but they just don't know how and this gets back to demand right where is the demand there's a lot of demand to change but they don't know where to go the other part is trade-offs is people don't understand trade-offs and so as we think about left to right thinking which is almost like cause and fact we read left to right but I actually think right to left and so I think about the outcome and that outcome then turns into outputs and those outputs then turn into systems and those systems have inputs but if I don't understand the outcome I'm trying to get to where most people try to build something is like I have these inputs to put into this system to get that output and then what can I do with it and so I wrote another book called demand side sales which takes the same approach of how do we understand the progress your customers trying to make so we can actually build our sales process to match the way people want to buy based on the progress they want as opposed to the way we want to sell same thing everything's kind of nested but at the same time it's applied to very different verticals I'm a little bit of a crazy thinker but that's why I'm trying to organize it through books and collaborations with people because I've been very successful but in a lot of cases I have to start to communicate how I think that way so right to left thinking is one of those things where I know other people have talked about it but it's like so innate to me that I didn't even realize that's how I did it until I had to explain it to somebody.

That's interesting like they're

starting at one end and I'm starting at the other and like wait why are you starting there and they're like why are you starting there I'm like I gotta know where we're done. That's not everyone. Yeah and that's exactly right.