Navigating Relationships: Perspectives on Polyamory and Gender Dynamics

In this deep dive, we explore the intricate dynamics of the Effective Altruism (EA) community and its links to polyamory and sex work within the tech-centric Silicon Valley culture. The conversation exposes how women in these communities are often caught in a cycle of exploitation, love-bombing, and employment gaps, making it difficult to escape. We also discuss the cultural shift from monogamy towards polyamory, the socioeconomic repercussions faced by women, and the contrasting perspectives between supporters and critics of this lifestyle. Additionally, the discussion meanders through personal anecdotes, societal observations, and humorous insights, ultimately highlighting the complexities of modern relationships within a high-status, intellectually driven community.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] With the grooming gang pipeline in the UK, there was obviously. A sort of plan, intention, like we are going to begin using these young women as economic assets, we're going to go out and find them, but the same general dynamic happened organically, like the women in this case found the EA community, you know, they selected into it, but the same dynamic started to play, where they essentially first got love bombed, and they were vulnerable, and they were kind of disassociated from their home community at that point distinct from the rest of society, they fell into this community and then they started getting passed around.

Speaker 9: Butters, do you have a problem? All these are kissing fellers, and they haven't figured out that they can be making

Malcolm Collins: And, it creates these giant black holes in their resumes.

Simone Collins: Where for years Oh no, right, if you have this big employment gap.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, and that's why they get trapped because now they can't do anything else. And now the type of guy who wants a long term partner doesn't want to marry them.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-2: And I'd point out, none of this happens intentionally. This is basically the story of the [00:01:00] EA community as it relates to women.

Speaker 2: In an effort to raise money came up with a nifty plan where she'd date guys and charge them money.

Speaker 4: I go on dates all the time with a whole bunch of, you know, boys and

Speaker 2: stuff.

Speaker 4: And I kind of need somebody to help me out, like, you know, my partner in crime.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

thanks so much for asking. She said she needed my help to make sure that the dates went okay and that the guys paid her. Oh my god, you were a pimp. What? God, no. No, I was just trying to help a friend. And wouldn't you know it, some of Brenda's girlfriends Decided they wanted to be a part of it. Decided I shouldn't use my real name. So we came up with the name Gator. I'm telling you, you're a pimp. No! Are you even listening to the story?

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone! I have had my perspective changed pretty dramatically on polyamory recently. The affective altruist community, slash the rationalist community, slash the singularity community, because they sort of all come together into this Silicon Valley diaspora community, or wider sort of Silicon Valley.

I [00:02:00] don't know what you want to say at the, like, heart of the Silicon Valley ecosystem at the moment. And it's been pretty dramatic, because I used to have this perspective of being okay with sex work more broadly.

Not religiously speaking, I'm just like legally speaking, okay?

Simone Collins: Legally. Wow. Okay. Where are we going with this? I'm so curious. What I

Malcolm Collins: mean is, I think that all of this stuff is against the Bible. I think it is against what you're supposed to do. But Right, but if you

Simone Collins: don't follow the Bible or any other religion that's against a personal thing, this

Malcolm Collins: is not Even legally, it might make sense to make this stuff illegal.

Oh. Just because,

Simone Collins: basically, logistically, it produces bad outcomes, from a societal level, on a personal level.

Malcolm Collins: deleterious outcomes for many of the people or most of the people involved in a way that they would want at the end of the pipeline to be like, I wish I had never gotten into the beginning of that pipeline.

In the same way drugs or gambling might create that scenario for an individual. But even more dramatically, it changed my [00:03:00] view on polyamory. Which I used to be pretty okay with. If people don't know polyamory. This is where you take multiple other partners, most partners, just sort of sleep around.

Well,

Simone Collins: no, not necessarily. Someone who's polyamorous just isn't exclusively romantically attached to people. So maybe one partner is monogamous and the other one's polyamorous, and as long as the monogamous partner consents to the polyamorous person having other partners, then it's still a functional relationship.

It's not like everyone in a polyamorous relationship has to sleep around a ton.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, sure, sure. You can have one person sleep around a ton. And there are forms of polyamory that I'm still okay with. Oh, really? Oh,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: Wow. So this is very intriguing. Very spicy, yes. We actually talked in a previous video about how a style that some women have used to secure high quality mates that we have seen be successful is to propose polyamorous relationships.

That were married relationships and then use that to get the guy to marry them have kids with them And then as the guy got older he stopped caring about sex with other random people

Because

as somebody's saying in the [00:04:00] discord non reproductive sex gets gross when you get older and I actually I hate to say it like

Simone Collins: kinda does.

Well, I don't know. Does non reproductive sex with a 20 year old get grosser, Malcolm? Or is it just with older women? Oh, that's an

Malcolm Collins: interesting point. I

Simone Collins: mean

Malcolm Collins: If I had a stable of 20 year olds I'd have a stable of 20 year olds, which I need. Can we work on that for one dictator?

Hey, Hey, Hey,

I'm not. Oh my God.

There's such a funny video. So freedom tunes does these great shows. We inject them in our videos all the time. They did one recently where the Democrats were trying to run a scam on old people to get the money that they used to be getting from a USAID. And one of them gets to the place and somebody takes the phone from the old woman.

And he's like, who is this? Is this you, Chuck Schumer? And it's pretty clear into it that it's Elon Musk. And he goes, if I catch you here again, I'll impregnate you. Oh my god. That is, I want that to be Elon's stereotypical, like, attack on people now. [00:05:00] You come here again and I'll knock you up, you fat b*****d.

You wrinkly old piece of, you know, whatever. So anyway Point being, I need to make that my thing, like, I can't do that because I'm like, with a woman who I love and like, I'm known for knocking up random people. Give me a billion dollars and I might change my tune on this, right? Oh

Simone Collins: my god.

All I'm saying is, I think that people Can find sex to be arousing in the right scenario and I imagine you know your point there But so the point here making

Malcolm Collins: EA to sex worker pipeline because it's a real thing and I didn't realize okay. Wow

Simone Collins: that is EA I mean EA And, and, and rationalism more broadly too in Silicon Valley culture are all associated with very like cerebral intelligent, thoughtful, altruism focused, not like, where is the sex and [00:06:00] debauchery?

Malcolm Collins: Come on, you remember the first time I took you to like singularity, singularitarian or rationalist or less wrong party, right? You know, so.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it was at some house called Tortuga, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that was El Tortuga. And I was like, you know, all these parties have orgies in them, right? And you're like, no, I don't.

Look, it's just a bunch of nerds. And I was like, don't open that door. And you're like, oh,

Simone Collins: okay. I didn't open that door. No, what happened was we went and it was like a normal. I mean, of course, from the house because it's in the Bay Area and all the houses in the Bay Area pretty much like, yeah, just very sad.

And we went there and we talked to people and at some point someone was like, do you want to switch outfits with me? And I thought that that was a weird question. And then when we left. You were like, that person was inviting you to an orgy or something like that, and I was like, I have no idea what, and I literally remember opening a door.

That's something I

Malcolm Collins: don't

Simone Collins: forget. I didn't open it. Well, okay, keep in mind, like, maybe I have some kind of, like, [00:07:00] Selective blackout. I went to Burning Man and have no memory of being exposed to any sex or drugs. Okay, like I May just not and like literally like a a muggle and magic like okay Well, then

Malcolm Collins: okay as an outsider here i'm

Simone Collins: stay

Malcolm Collins: ea the effective algebras community and the larger like less wrong community and everything That has always been intimately connected with both partner sharing polyamory and origins is it sort

Simone Collins: of like a futuristic advanced Vision, because part of me thought that all of the sexual weirdness of the Silicon Valley movement really had to do more with.

the San Francisco associations. I mean, that is, that is where I mean, that's

Malcolm Collins: part of it. So this stuff isn't that radical for them, but this community is very much about like first principles thinking through why they do things. Yeah. So they'd be like, okay, from a logical perspective, if it feels good for you and it feels good for somebody else, [00:08:00] why wouldn't you do it?

Right? That's, that's the way they're going to think about it. And then when they think about relationships, they're going to think. Okay, you know, why, why do you have one partner, right? Is it about jealousy? Is jealousy a positive emotion? Is, you know, that's the way they're going to engage with these ideas.

So, it only makes sense. It would actually be even weirder if they went into it from a monogamous perspective as a default. And all of this makes sense when you think about it from the outside. And then as to why so many people are drawn into it, even when they otherwise might not be, you've got to keep in mind, like, bulls in the community get drawn into it, right?

Okay. Girls in the, you know, rationality, singularitarian, less wrong community make up the vast minority of the community. I'd say they're probably one in eight members or one in ten members. Right, like it's

Simone Collins: a mostly male community.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, I'd go so far as to say they make up like one in, yeah, probably like one in eight members and a good 30 to 40 percent of the girls I've seen in the community are trans women.

Simone Collins: Yeah, there's, yeah, there's, there's [00:09:00] disproportionately more trans women. And there are very few women. And now the number has increased. I'd say

Malcolm Collins: because of trans women, it might be like two in eight or like three in, in seven. Knocking the number

Simone Collins: up. It can't be. That there's almost an equal number of women to trans.

I would say there's almost one trans woman for every natal woman Like conferences some conferences we've been to for example.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, We'll put the trans women in a different bucket and bring them in in a second because when I first got involved with these communities Trans women were not on the scene yet.

Yeah. Yeah and they it didn't really play into the dynamic, but then they did later. We'll get into that in just a second so anyway Because of this, you as a woman in this community have a much higher value than you would in almost any other culture. You can be frumpy and fat or you know, lazy or whatever.

Not saying that people

Simone Collins: in the EA move. Actually, like, I think it attracts. pretty attractive people, but yeah, like

Malcolm Collins: more on the attractive side that I've seen [00:10:00] actually. But if you are attractive, oh my God, you're treated like a god queen by all of the well, keep in mind, the guys in the community are often very different from the girls in the community to to get in the community and earn status as a guy.

You either have to move up one of the peerage networks, which means gaining access to funding streams, which then you can redirect. to people below you in the peerage network or you have to be a competent tech worker, which means you're typically making a pretty decent salary. I'd say the average salary in the movement is probably these days at least half a million dollars.

Keep in mind they're living in like San Francisco and Manhattan mostly. So they may not be. You'd

Simone Collins: never know. They look like they're poor.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So anyway, you have all these guys in the movement who are earning tons and tons of money. And then the women in the movement, even when they are. Program.

Well, they're not often programmers. They're often like psychologists or neuroscientists or evolutionary biologists which are all positions that, you know, sounds super hard and everything like that but they don't actually earn much money. And it's quite hard to find [00:11:00] jobs for them. And so. Get into this community where your knowledge is respected, you are respected and you can gain even more respect for sleeping with additional people, because, oh, if you're only sleeping with one guy, you know, that causes problems in the community, right?

Because, you know, there's only one woman for every, like, three or four guys, right? So If you sleep around, you can gain status. And then what happens is, Oh, well, you're living in a city like San Francisco. Now you're living in a city like Manhattan. Now you can't really earn money with your evolutionary bio degree.

You can't really earn money with it. Like a neuroscience degree is actually quite hard. I have a neuroscience directorate degree. It's actually quite hard to earn money with. You can't, it's true. It's true. It's true. It's your psychology degree or whatever, right? And so, you know, some of the guys start to take pity on you.

And they'll, they'll give you money for sleeping with them, and they'll let you stay at their place, which are usually pretty nice or interesting group houses. And so you slowly work your way into this.

Simone Collins: Oh, oh [00:12:00] no.

Speaker 8: , don't you wanna start makin some money? Leave me alone. Well, you were made for the playground, . You should be out there workin Don't you want a new lunchbox? A nice new coat? I can get all that for you, . Butters, dude!

Oh. Well, all I'm sayin is the should be out there workin is all. What you doin ? Just givin kisses to Stan for free? You should be makin some

Malcolm Collins: And it's very hard to not work your way into this. This is where I went from, Is this something that people are truly?

Open mindedly consenting to, or is it,

Because before I had this perspective of, yes, but the women who are engaging with this community are consenting to a polyamorous lifestyle. And I have seen women enter the movement who are more monogamous. So I'll note a few things. The women I have seen engaged with a movement who are monogamous are constantly pressured to sleep with other people.

Are they? So

Simone Collins: what does that? What does that look like? Because I just don't understand how the leap goes from being monogamous to being polyamorous within the movement. And when you said that, Oh, [00:13:00] you can gain status by sleeping with even more people. You know, that, that runs against, I think, both my and most people's intuition, because the, the mainstream responsibility of taking on more partners is, it's so shaming, like, you lose value when you are less exclusive as a woman on average, and it's weird that one community would, like, defy these laws of nature.

Malcolm Collins: So let's, let's talk about why this happens. Okay, okay. So first why, what, what, what does it look like to have your boundaries pushed? What happens is, is a lot of men in the community, if you say I'm a monogamous or something like this they really take that as a, oh, so I'm not supposed to tell your partner about us sleeping together.

That's what that means to them. And because other women have said that to them in the movement and, you know, not been actually monogamous, they, and it's happened enough. They now just don't sort of respect those words very much and will be fairly aggressive with people because it's what's expected.

I mean, this is the way things work. If you expect to be able to do something you're gonna keep [00:14:00] pushing for it. Like, why are you being weird about this? Why are you acting like a weird conservative christian

People in our community don't do this and i remember within the community even thinking that the people who didn't sleep around the women specifically that was the only ones i was thinking of who are more monogamous i remember thinking they were really weird even you yeah i was like this is like why are they like doing this and then the interesting thing is and this always happened Is, is after one of the ones who was like monogamous broke up with their partner, then they'd become polyamorous.

Simone Collins: Oh, wow. Oh, cause they were like a bunch of people simultaneously lined up. Okay. Cause that was another thing. I was like, how would your existing incoming monogamous boyfriend ever be okay with you becoming poly, but Yeah, relationships, especially when you're younger, are more likely to end, and then, then what happens?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so you enter the community as a girl in a monogamous relationship often. And you may not go out of that relationship or anything like that, but when that relationship breaks up, you've been going to enough parties, you've been being hit on by enough people And maybe it even

Simone Collins: starts off as like, you're [00:15:00] contextualizing it as a rebound, like, oh, you're just having Some fun one night stands you know to mend your broken heart after leaving, you know

Malcolm Collins: Are doing all the stuff for you your boyfriend used to do they're paying for meals They might be paying for some of your stuff.

That's

Simone Collins: one night stands turned into You know, like every other night for a while

Malcolm Collins: and they don't expect fidelity from you because they're sleeping with other women as well.

Yeah.

So you've had these guys hitting on you. You're not used to this, but you're like, Oh, okay. Like you've been very interested in me for a while.

Like, let's hook up. Oh, this seems like a normal relationship. There's been some other guy who's been hitting on me. Like, am I allowed to like. You see him on a date tomorrow or whatever and they're like, yeah, sure. Like, you know, we bang the same chicks all the time, right? You know, because they have disintermediated and it's seen as negative within these communities to feel jealousy, like that would be like, why are you hoarding this resource, this woman from other members of the community when we just want to use her for pleasure and it feels good for her [00:16:00] too.

And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And she's getting money from it. That's not like she has a job right now. So it, it, it, when you disintermediate it. A monogamous relationship, even if it is done on good terms, you turn the relationship into sex work. And then you can't leave, because you're stuck in San Francisco, you're stuck in Manhattan, you haven't had a job in how many years?

And let me explain what I mean by this. Okay, me and you, early in our relationship, I was like paying for you to go to college. With my job, right? And I, I paid for food and everything like that. Right. You know, I there was a time in our relationship where I was the guy who was earning the money because I had the higher paying career anymore, but this is the way it worked.

Right. And a venture capitalist at the time, and that is a normal monogamous relationship in a lot of places around the world. Right. Now where, where money sort of flows from the wealthier partner to the less wealthy partner, and often that's from the male to the female, blah, blah, blah. Anyway that's monogamy, right?

Like that's something I can invest in and continue to build. Yeah, let's like disintermediate that relationship. Now, [00:17:00] if you And you're getting the same benefit, but from five different guys.

Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. We're supporting my room and board, et cetera.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Maybe, maybe they're doing a little less than I would do, but it

Simone Collins: seems odd.

Like why would you invest in someone if they're so fluid in your life? This is the point here. You are getting. It's becoming transactional.

Malcolm Collins: And you are getting, yes, but you are not getting a real investment. These guys don't care that you continue to build your career. They don't care about investing in you as an asset, because, same way as we've done another video on this, you need to own your wife.

You need to own your husband. When I say own, what I mean is when somebody doesn't own a property or something like that, they don't invest in this. This is what we've seen in communist countries. Yeah, the

Simone Collins: incentives are misaligned. You're not going to take care of that thing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yes, and it's because you don't benefit from that thing and prove it.

It was a great it was sent to us by one of our fans, a green text post on 4chan recently about a guy and his wife who he had [00:18:00] known since they were kids and had flirted with him since they were kids. And they went through and read her diary about, like, when she first met him. And so she's reading it, it's very funny, especially kid stuff.

And then she gets, like, quiet when reading it. And she's like, okay, I'm gonna like, like she goes on, she's not going to hide this from him, but she met it's the first time she met him and he goes, and he's really nerdy. So I bet he'll be rich one day I should date him. And then he like thinks back to her always pushing him to get like the higher earning degrees, her always pushing him to like study more.

And, and he ends up this very Successful guy. And he's quite happy with this life. He doesn't like hold this against her. But the point here being is because they were in a monogamous relationship, she, from a Machiavellian standpoint, from a self interested standpoint, had a reason to try to improve him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. She invested in him, believing him to be an appreciating asset that she hitched herself to.

Malcolm Collins: Exactly. And the women who are in these situations, they [00:19:00] don't understand that these guys might have an emotional relationship with them, right? Even an emotional relationship, if they even do. Now, a lot of them don't, right?

Like, a lot of them what a person I was talking to about this said, you know, you think you're getting more love, But you're getting no love at all. You think you're getting more people caring about you, but at the end of the day, it's all hollow. And that is, you know, our biology is not meant to bond to somebody who we know that other people are sleeping with.

Like, that's just It would be,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: More

Simone Collins: use of resources,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. For females, and I think this is where women get tricked, women can bond to somebody who's sleeping with other women. This is the type of polyamory where i'm actually okay Like if you're a rich enough guy and you have like multiple female partners like whatever throughout all of society throughout all of history even in the most You know, monogamous countries in history.

I'm mentioning like Louis the 14th, like France, you know, like Catholic country there, the height of the church, you know, you still have regular mistresses and stuff like that. It was, so you wouldn't

Simone Collins: encourage our daughters to [00:20:00] be polyamorous, but sister wives to assist sufficiently Wealthy husband fine.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, if they're marrying a like a multi trillionaire or billionaire, you know, I'm assuming money continues to debase somebody who owns like half a Bitcoin. You know, sorry, I'm joking.

Simone Collins: Yes, sure.

Malcolm Collins: But the point here being Is that I'm I'm like less like it intrinsically doesn't work in those scenarios And it can allow women to get higher quality husbands than they otherwise would so I don't necessarily disagree I would I would have significant caution around it in these scenarios significant caution, but I wouldn't like absolutely rule it out.

But In the other way one girl sleeping was like, this destroys things.

Oh, it, it just, because it destroys this investment incentive. It destroys the core of the relationship. But I want to talk about how women gain status by sleeping with additional partners.

Cause this is all true. Again, this

Simone Collins: seems so counterintuitive. How can this be the case?

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so, because there is [00:21:00] an expectation of polyamory in these communities, right? And even more than that, an expectation of polyamory if I am a guy who holds some status over another guy I have an expectation of polyamory.

Expectation of access to his partners. So suppose you're at whatever EA peerage network or whatever, and there's a guy who's upstream in the peerage network of me, my grants, my loans depend on him. And we're at a party or something like that, right? That guy. Is going to expect to at least be able to hit on without consequences, whoever I am with

Speaking of this, we got an email recently from one of our fans in the EA community, and he said, Regarding your comments on sex work in EA, I heard a story related to the Life Extension organization S. E. N. S. that I consider adjacent to EA. Yeah, anything in Life Extension is basically part of this larger community.

, the founder, Audrey Day Gray, was voted out of the organization for interfering with a [00:22:00] sexual harassment investigation against him. In particular, what stood out to me was one case of the harassment with him allegedly Pressuring young women into making sexual slash romantic advances towards potential wealthy donors as a fundraising strategy.

I also remember hearing a very similar story about this about that. Ea cult, leverage. , and what leverage, one of the people who was funding it. , and he was like, yeah, at one point they basically came up with a scheme, which he was not into at all. By the way, he's like, what are you guys doing? , where they would brainwash young women and then try to pimp them out to the people who were giving them money, , to get more money.

Now, the way that they worded this is, , that they would do some sort of like work with the person that they would go in and, and, , you know, they had reframed this not as sex work, but as, some sort of like psychological, , session or something like that, but it's, it's what it boiled down to, , so this is something I know that, , in at least two occasions, it's like allegedly been tried.

now, suppose you're that woman, right?

And this guy is hitting on you. [00:23:00] It creates hypergamy and steroids because you have removed from the culture any cultural penalty to sleeping around

But if I start to sleep with this guy who's higher in the net now suppose this guy has a lot of money Suppose he's got like a quarter billion dollars or half a billion dollars or suppose he runs one of the largest organizations in the space by sleeping with him I can Significantly increase the type of parties I'm getting invited to.

I can significantly increase the introductions I'm getting. I mean, keep in mind, this is how Kamala Harris got her career started, right? Remember, she was sleeping with that guy when she was, it was in his 60s when she was in her late 20s. Oh gosh. And he got her those early jobs and you know, you can move up really quickly as a woman.

When you're sleeping with people and there's no cost. If someone

Simone Collins: has an interest in, in opening doors for you and especially if your career or work or ability to fundraise is contingent on your access to social networks. [00:24:00] I could see that being

Malcolm Collins: now

Simone Collins: you can't

Malcolm Collins: stop sleeping around, right? Because you are now in a peerage network, which I'm calling a cult, whatever you want to call it, where polyamory is expected and you are now, they don't frame it this way, even in their own heads until they get out of it.

And this is the thing I've noticed about this pipeline. Is there like, I had to stay in a sexual relationship with this person because I had other people, but basically I had to go and sexually service this person to continue to get grants.

That's

basically what ends up happening and if you don't believe that this is happening in the effect of altruist movement Go look on the boards of these organizations, the percentage of males and females.

You will almost always see a higher percentage of females. How is that happening? How could that conceivably happen given how rare women are in the movement? Okay, if this was to any degree a meritocracy. These women are getting these positions either for DEI like reasons. Oh, what

Simone Collins: if, what if It's a selection thing because women are more likely to be [00:25:00] interested in like interactive social oriented roles whereas men are more Interested in like object slash direct applied science or action related.

I think that would

Malcolm Collins: make sense um in in Some context, but I think you just see it too frequently when this large less wrong va space like given the number of women Versus their popularity on boards. And i'd also note here if you're like, no, that can't be the case It is not due to sexual favors well, then Riddle me this.

How come, despite natal women and trans women existing within a movement at about the same rate, it's almost always natal women who have these positions?

The

more sexual desirable class of women because there's something in the back of somebody's brain, who opens

it.

Sorry, I can't however, I would note here, like, why do you get trans women in this movement as well?

Think about the status that can be gained versus the male side of the movement. It's just so [00:26:00] hard you really have to be putting money in to matter.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, and I guess, I don't know, I don't know that many women who are in. You want to know the prominent positions? I, I, the only one I can think of, like, in terms of like a famous EA companies, FTX, and unfortunately, Caroline Ellison was. Okay, a perfect example of everything I'm talking about. I know, that's why I'm like, Oh boy, this is not helping.

I'm trying to like, trying to counter this. I don't

Malcolm Collins: want to name other specific companies because I don't want to call people out. No, definitely not.

Simone Collins: No. At least, but there are like detailed books about. I mean, because of all the legal proceedings too, it, it, it's very public the other thing that's interesting about

Malcolm Collins: this and I don't, I, I have some theories on why this might be the case, but within the movement, trans women are significantly more chased and less likely to be in sex work or passed around than natal women.

Simone Collins: That's interesting because one thing [00:27:00] that's discussed about. Trans women in general, is that it's extremely common for trans women to end up in sex work, just like more broadly, like non EA trans women. So what's going on there?

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think that that's actually more correlated to the cultures that trans women find themselves in.

Oh, and that like,

Simone Collins: they're sort of, when you're a trans woman outside the EA world, it's a lot harder to get a job. Whereas if you're a trans woman in the EA world, You are more likely to just be a

Malcolm Collins: cowder or like engineer or like, I think that that's why I think that they have so

Simone Collins: insensitive, but I feel like a lot of the trans women in the EA movement are Asian and you're much more likely to pass and just look great as so sorry, but like, I do think that if you pass as a trans woman, your life is going to be a lot easier and it's less expensive to pass.

As an Asian trans woman, what am I

Malcolm Collins: favorite? I remember I was talking to somebody and we're talking about like two [00:28:00] trans women. We're like, does we pass? And he's like, Oh yeah, like a Taiwanese or like a Taiwanese twink. I think is what he said. And I was like,

okay, that's a, that's a way to answer.

It's surprising, but it makes sense. But like we all knew, like, I was like, yeah, I know what the, I know what you mean. Okay.

Simone Collins: That, that roughly makes sense. Why do you think they are more chased in general?

Malcolm Collins: I think it might be because one, they gain less by sleeping around because they're valued less as sexual partners.

So the cost to them of doing it might be lower. They, they often got into the movement. As like founders or engineers or coders to begin with. So they had alternate income stream that necessitates it less. And they often have, I mean, you know, this, your MRI scans, the brain of a man, they better understand what men really want and what they're using women for.

And so they're less likely to have the delusion that a woman would have, because remember I said that women. Believe that if a, because they know that like if a man was sleeping [00:29:00] with other women, they could still form an emotional attachment to that man. And so they believe that a, and this is on average, obviously not all women are like this, not all men are like this.

They believe that a, a A man when they're sleeping around, men are still going to form an attachment to them and that's not necessarily the

Simone Collins: case. Right, they're sort of expecting reciprocity or that they're having a similar experience emotionally.

Malcolm Collins: And I don't think trans women are that deluded.

They know what's up. They're like, yeah, I've played the other side of this game. Yeah. So they, they see, they see what's up more. And keep in mind, I mean, we talk about the commonness of trans women in the movement. There was that cult recently that some reporter called us to like do a piece on.

They started murdering people and they're like all trans women. Oh,

Simone Collins: yes. I guess we're choosing not to name them. So many people are talking about

Malcolm Collins: cults. The Zizians. Yeah, the Zizians. But you know, I, I've read some of their stuff. It's interesting. Like, I, I think, like, I, I disagree with them, but it's one of these movements that I'm like, well, I disagree with you, but like, I, I, I see where [00:30:00] your philosophy comes from in the same way I see it, like, where antinatalist philosophy comes from.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like, I, I don't think that it is. There is

Simone Collins: a certain amount of logical consistency that you can respect.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, there's a certain amount of logical consistency I can respect. But a lot of the underlying assumptions.

So all of this, like putting all of this together for me has helped me be like the problem with the normalization of polyamory is that It leads to situations that women and men, men don't realize they're leading women to become into trapped into sex work. And remember when I say trapped into sex work, nobody intends on this when this is starting, right?

It's a, it's a guy who's being nice because he's sleeping with a woman. And he's like, here's the money, you know, I'm going to sleep on wherever.

Simone Collins: Here's what's really crazy. Here's what's blowing my mind is when you described this process. You know, [00:31:00] woman, maybe who just recently moved to the Bay Area, right, like somewhat vulnerable, kind of alone meets a guy who introduces her to this community, who shows her a lot of love and support and then maybe for some reason she meets more people within that community or becomes sort of unmoored from it and then gets opportunities.

to sometimes to her advantage, get intimate with other men within this community. And then it happens more and more, you know, when we, we talked about this in another podcast, do you know what the podcast was about? What? Grooming gangs in the UK. Oh, yes. That's what I'm thinking as I'm here. I'm like, Oh my God.

And this, of course, like, I think with the grooming gang pipeline in the UK, there was obviously. A sort of plan, intention, like we are going to begin using these young women as economic assets, we're going to go out and find them, but the same general dynamic happened organically, like the women in this case found the EA community, you know, they selected into it, but the same dynamic started to play, [00:32:00] where they essentially first got love bombed, and they were vulnerable, and they were kind of disassociated from their home community at that point distinct from the rest of society, they fell into this community and then they started getting passed around.

And clearly it didn't go as, I don't think it has gone as poorly for these women. They're not, you know, kidnapped and beaten and everything. It

Malcolm Collins: does go, because it targets women who otherwise would be very high value partners who could otherwise secure very high quality men. Yeah, that's the

Simone Collins: other weird thing about it is, is instead of like women who have been cast off by society who, come from abusive households and who are young and vulnerable, like it's instead like incredibly high achieving high IQ, high altruistic, high conscientiousness women.

It's, it's so weird.

Malcolm Collins: And, and it creates, and this is the thing that's not talking about, it creates these giant black holes in their resumes.

Simone Collins: Where for years Oh no, right, if you have this big employment gap.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, and that's why they get trapped because now they can't do anything else. And now the type of guy who wants a long term partner doesn't want to marry them.[00:33:00]

Simone Collins: You know the

Malcolm Collins: conservative guy who actually wants a wife and asks

Simone Collins: about our history

Malcolm Collins: or like About this and she was like I thought I was increasing my status because I wanted a guy I was like no guy is gonna like want me seriously if i'm a prude right like um Like they're gonna be like ew gross like you don't sleep with lots of guys And what's interesting is this is the signal she would have gotten from guys in the community If she's single she's waiting to marriage or something like that to a guy in this community They would have genuinely had the ew gross reaction.

Like, why are you doing that? But it is because they were not looking for a partner who was waiting until. No, definitely not. Yeah. Looking for a longterm partner at all. They were looking for a sexual partner. And so that's why you would get rejected for them and you confuse any sort of rejection with, with a meaningful rejection.

As we said, like a partner who rejects you, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It could be that you guys would form a terrible relationship with each other. Totally. They are rejecting you because they want something else from you, right? Like they are like you, like, that's weird to me. Like [00:34:00] it's not normal within our culture and women are very sensitive to what's normal within a culture.

So we decided to ask one of our friends who is in the community and has a very good sort of view of what's happening in the community, and she added some additional nuance to sort of how this pipeline functions. Specifically, it's a problem for new girls when they enter the community. Like, she says, once somebody's been in the community for a while, they either know what's up, or they sort of get their place within the community, or there becomes Taboos around approaching them, but for new people in the community, especially women in the community, all of the guys, especially the, as she put it, lemons, you know, the guys who are single or couldn't secure a partner or just sleep around a lot.

, those are the guys who all tackle these girls at once. And if the girl doesn't have a lot of experience turning away guys or turning away attention, especially from guys who might be high status in the community, It goes very bad for them. And when women like her try to warn [00:35:00] new female entrants, it can come off like mate guarding behavior because they're like, oh, you just don't want me to have the guy or they, they read it as something other than what it is, which is genuine.

Concern for them and she was saying that if somebody takes like the concern seriously if they don't jump immediately into polyamory when they get into the community , they're generally okay , the problem comes when they do, , or if they they stay monogamous and and and she pointed out, , Because maybe we gave the impression in one of our videos that the community doesn't accept monogamous people It absolutely does they're just seen as sort of Weird.

I mean, if a girl enters the community in a monogamous relationship, she's going to be heavily targeted. , and I will say, I know, you know, as somebody who's been adjacent to the community, , the person who I'm talking to is not, I think, in a monogamous relationship. So she might not be fully aware of how much.

Individuals within the community don't respect monogamy. They just don't do it publicly by that. What I mean is they'll still hit on somebody if they're in a quote unquote monogamous relationship and do so very aggressively and ask for [00:36:00] sexual favors for things, even when the person's in a monogamous relationship, because I've seen this with my friends who will tell people I'm monogamous and then the community pushes them further.

So I thought all of that was very interesting that this is a primarily. New entrant problem. , and if you can prevent them from getting sidetracked, it's not as bad She says one thing that really helps is you can ask People in the community like okay Who's who's the good guys who I can sleep with or who are the guys to actually target?

, but she says a big problem with the whisper network is 1. it's a rich get richer sort of a thing where the, , highest status guys just end up accumulating more and more because they're the ones who everyone knows. Oh, this one's good. Especially if you just want to sleep around or something like that.

, and then there's a secondary problem. It's , the, the queens of this network are often people like who, well, is, you know, an actual sex worker. Right? So, , it's going to lead to them recommending the type of guys who are already utilizing those pipelines, which can normalize transitioning into those pipelines.

Like they are like you, like, that's weird to me. Like it's [00:37:00] not normal within our culture and women are very sensitive to what's normal within a culture. And so if it's normal within a culture, they're like, oh yeah yeah, I've got to do this or every guy's going to think I'm a weirdo, like some sort of religious nut job. Right. Which is what many of them frame their lives against because it's the background they come from. The number one background from these women that I have seen, you know, Ayla is a great example of this, but it's the other one I've seen is a conservative evangelical households.

They, they come disproportionately for evangelical Christian families. I do

Simone Collins: think it was an important exception here though. One, my understanding is she got into camming specifically. Well, before she ever encountered, you

Malcolm Collins: did not follow this pathway, not at all. And I think she also, but I think that she normalizes this pathway for other women, because I think the other

Simone Collins: women don't understand maybe how Ayla got into this and her background and her proclivities and her preferences in her lifestyle as well.

Like she doesn't have the same end goal that [00:38:00] most girls in the EA community have. And she's very different from myself. It's a very

Malcolm Collins: unique case, I don't think. But I think that she to understand a bit about her background, she genuinely had no other options. She was working in a factory. Oh no, yeah, her life was so much worse

Simone Collins: before.

So much worse. Maybe

Malcolm Collins: she joined like a streaming site where like she got into like LSD and drugs and stuff like that. She joined a

Simone Collins: house with a bunch of people who were camming. together.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And then there were guys involved, basically. It was just a bunch of, it was a, it was a girl. And she always really enjoyed sex.

She is a naturally really horny person. Who's really interested in having sex with people. And again, as Ayla said on the, in the early things, she's like, well, like, why would I deny men in my community this right? Like I enjoy it. They enjoy it. And they seem to need it for some level of like mental health.

And guys will argue this, like, incel guys will argue this, like, guys who don't have any sex at all, like, have mental health issues. So, that, Ayla's even making the incel [00:39:00] argument here, like, well, you know, the lower value men do need sex occasionally, or they go crazy. And this is the argument being made within, like, the, the EA Less Wrong community, right?

So, I think that like, I understand all that, but for me, It's like, yeah, but as a girl, you have to be careful. And I think the number one thing and one of the reasons I'm making this podcast is maybe to wake somebody up who might be going down this pipeline and not realizing it

or

might be in this pipeline and not realize it.

Yeah, I feel like it's never too late to step out. Well, I mean, it is. It can be too late to step. It can be very hard to step out. But I think that it only gets

Simone Collins: harder, though. It's not like, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: the earlier you recognize

Simone Collins: the best time to do many things is like. Three years ago, but what you're going to do.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And this is also a problem with things like only fans and other types of sex work that can seem normalized is that it removes. Your ability to get other jobs in the future or get partners in the [00:40:00] future, depending on what type of work you're doing on it. You can make it very difficult. I don't know though,

Simone Collins: like, I remember one of the editors for our book that we just hired through Upwork.

Who, like, did pretty good work and, you know, whatever. We randomly discovered she had an OnlyFans.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that, that, that doesn't mean that that worked out good for her.

Simone Collins: I guess. Yeah. I mean, she was doing editing work on Upwork and it's not like,

Malcolm Collins: well, you could earn a lot of money on OnlyFans.

And they're like, if you could earn a lot of money on OnlyFans, then you could get a really high quality husband.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And why was Jen Upwork if she was making enough money on OnlyFans to

Malcolm Collins: be fair. Right. Right. But the point being is, is. With OnlyFans. And by the way, I heard some interesting theories after our OnlyFans video that OnlyFans actually got popular because people started using it to create the type of content that people are looking for these days.

It's like much more creative, like anime, cosplay, Warhammer cosplay, like the old porn studio.

Simone Collins: Clever! Warhammer. Sexy Warhammer. Of course! Yes! What is it? Rule 64? Like, if you just Provide more [00:41:00] customized live action rule 64 for those people who want live action. And that's another thing that people were pointing out in the comments of that video was that many of the people who were turned off by both like Disney character lunches and by strip clubs were also not that big into.

Live action, erotic material, which same goes for you,

Malcolm Collins: right? You can't, I am, I am 2d. I have the image of you. I always say like, whenever we're doing like 2d justice or like the 3d women are, are trash, I always use the anime version of you as like my example of the perfect 2d woman.

Simone Collins: My point is that it seems that there, there's like a group, a rough grouping of people that really need.

Like the human version and are really turned on by that. And most of the rule 64 stuff online is illustrations. So only fans. May have been the first avenue to take Rule 64 on mass, on a [00:42:00] mass customized level. Like, 'cause I mean, there's so many permutations, right? I mean like, oh my gosh. And then make that possible and bring it to scale.

That's so clever.

Malcolm Collins: You wanna see, well, I mean, because people create parasocial connections with characters Yeah. Within shows. And one of the things that I noted, if you wanna see one of our early, very early spicy videos, which is why you should prefer a husband who fats too. Pony porn from like the old, like, I, I don't, by the way, I said in the video, I immediately, the first thing I said in the video is I do not find this ever arousing, but I wanted to understand why people find it arousing because like these things look nothing like humans and at the time it was like the Fifth most common category of porn was like MLP porn for

Simone Collins: the plot.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I was like, what the hell is going on here? Right. You know? And my thesis was, is that it was for men who preferred figures they saw as female. Even to the extent that they would ignore that they looked nothing like a fertile human female. These men. Because they have a strong sexual preference for characters or [00:43:00] people, they believe they are interacting with regularly in like a social context, like their brain has been tricked into believing this to the extent that they will ignore that they Look nothing like a fertile human female.

They would likely also bond really strongly to a wife or long term female partner. I was trying to come up with a spicy hypothesis, but so many people were like, Oh, this is proof. And I'm like, gosh, you guys don't know what, like no one has, it's interesting. No one has guessed what I'm into on any show I have ever seen.

Simone Collins: Really? Yeah. I guess I haven't seen any comments that

Malcolm Collins: I've seen

Simone Collins: a lot of really funny theories that have so far all been wrong. That's that's really funny actually.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, because of the theories that I've seen focus more on things that would modify my social status in a positive or negative context.

Because I think that that's what people want to project onto influencers is like, oh, he's into X thing. That's gonna, you know, make him look. Subby or or whatever, right? Like because that's interesting to them. When in reality what I'm like, what I'd actually be into would just not [00:44:00] modify. I mean, if people know of any unique sexual preference of an individual, they are going to use that to attack them.

So, so that's, that's why I don't like mention anything like this, but it's not something that's like uniquely embarrassing or anything like that.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-1: A great example of this happening to someone with Kenneth bone or Ken bone, that guy who asked a question in the, first Hillary Trump election that was seen as neutral. And everyone was like, oh, that's so cool. , and so he went on all these talk shows afterwards and he completely had his fame destroyed when people found out that he.

Had I don't even know if I'd say it's a fetish, but an arousal pattern was preference for pregnant women. , and people just thought this was, oh, how, what a gross fetish, and I'm like, that's like, of, of all of the potential fetishes I could think of, it doesn't objectify women, it's a normal thing, it's a, like, it, it maybe is, I would think, one of the least, , in terms of, like, unusual or [00:45:00] specific arousal patterns that could be used to attack someone, and yet it destroyed his entire fame cycle.

Malcolm Collins: I note here that now we know because texts from Elon have come out with the, the girl that he knocked up, that he's like, I can't wait to like, come on.

He's using language like knock you up again and stuff like that. That really comes off like somebody who has an impregnation fetish.

Simone Collins: To your point. The only fetish that is not a fetish is appropriative sex.

Malcolm Collins: That's what sex is for. That's

Simone Collins: the one thing that's not

Malcolm Collins: a fetish. That's the one

Simone Collins: thing. Oh god,

Malcolm Collins: people.

Just

Simone Collins: understand what is for.

Malcolm Collins: Sex with condoms is a fetish. Okay. Yes. Yes. Sex with condoms is the most common fetish.

Simone Collins: Or sex on birth control. Yeah, any, any non procreative sex I'm about to say.

Malcolm Collins: It's like you have an active sign that this is non procreative sex. Like, anyway but so like, do you understand now how, how tempting this pipeline is for [00:46:00] people?

And, and, and people can be like, well. On OnlyFans, and as I've said in the past, some women don't have any other choice for income, right? Than, than, than this stuff. Yeah,

Simone Collins: I guess that's where I also struggle. I'm like, well, why just not?

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I'm like, these women aren't you know, this is my like ultra ruthless approach.

I am more interested in keeping the few women who might be useful societal actors or potentially wives and really happy with that life keep them from falling off the rails. Then I would try to save the women who are just never going to be that good at anything. Because it's, it's differential utility.

It's, it's how they decided to do something with their lives that removes their ability to be positive social actors in another context.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: so, I guess what I would say here is, is while I wouldn't legally regulate this stuff personally, I would strongly shame it within our own family if it's context that significantly hurts someone's ability in a marriage market.

As I've noted, this isn't [00:47:00] all only felons. Well, I would

Simone Collins: even dissuade our sons from being polyamorous because it's just a distraction from marriage. It's a distraction from marriage. If you, as soon as you encourage men to sleep around a lot after like, Age 23,

Malcolm Collins: here's, I agree with Z after age 23, but there's a whole life you live before that.

And unfortunately, a lot of your status in training depends on your ability to secure multiple partners. I'm

Simone Collins: all for, but also like you have to understand men with minimal resources, which is typical for 23 year old men who are not either completely drop dead gorgeous or from families of means. And sorry, Malcolm, you're just too beautiful, like, what are you gonna do?

And very smart, like, you, you were, you had all the cards. Most pre 23 year old men are gonna like, if they try to go on their most aggressive sex mode, slut mode, maximum, maybe two partners. [00:48:00] Maybe three like

Malcolm Collins: look, I'm not gonna what I want to say is I'm not gonna shame my sons for getting multi ball No people who don't know multi ball in the old arcades You get this mode if you like we're like absolutely killing it We're be like multi ball and it shoots like a bunch of balls into the center of the game board and like The, the reality is, is I do not know what social context you're going to be in.

The point I'm making is that multiple partners for men does not always turn out bad. I am increasingly entering a mindset where I think multi pool partners for women. Always turns out bad. Which is, is very different. And here I was saying for OnlyFans, I would not, for example, with my daughter, change things that aren't going to significantly negatively modify their dating status, like feet modeling on OnlyFans or something like that.

Simone Collins: Well, what about, I feel like we've already gotten to a place, this isn't intentional, I think, but we've already gotten to a place where people use filters to the point of not being recognizable. If our [00:49:00] daughters were utterly unrecognizable. To anyone. But on OnlyFans, if it were completely anonymized, would you have a problem with it?

Malcolm Collins: Think, learn a lot about social dynamics. I question this is, this is the question I ask. Would I have a problem with it in a potential wife? If, if I, if it came

Simone Collins: out,

Malcolm Collins: if it, if it was discovered, would I, no. Would I? Like if you told me Yeah. You as a

Simone Collins: prospective boyfriend. Yeah. If I told you I.

Malcolm Collins: Totally anonymous,

Simone Collins: Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: Totally anonymous. I would care a lot less if it was totally anonymous, but I still would care a degree. The reason I mentioned something like foot modeling is I wouldn't care if you were a foot model at all. Maybe it's because I don't find feet arousing at all, but like, I would just take this perspective of, of, oh, you conned a bunch of weird guys who had mouth.

Functioning sexual, isn't

Simone Collins: this so interesting? Actually,

Malcolm Collins: ASMR, if you did ASMR or like, or like audio, like, and not say for whatever, I'd be like, whatever. I've noticed

Simone Collins: a thing, not infrequently online [00:50:00] where people shame requests they've received online to see pictures of their feet and also make an effort to not post pictures of their feet online.

And that really confuses me. Cause I'm like, dude, if someone gets erect, when they look at my feet or your feet. Like, why, no one is hurt. It's interesting

Malcolm Collins: for me because like it has, I don't view it as like a sexual part of your body. So like, I guess that maybe that's why I have so little like feeling like I would care.

Well, yeah, but

Simone Collins: what, what, what, what if, what if, but what if someone else does? I guess their, their problem is that

Malcolm Collins: someone else does.

Simone Collins: It doesn't matter to me. I view them as

Malcolm Collins: like pathetic. Like, and like, I guess like they're just like nobodies. They're, they're, they're The guy in like ntr porn who's like in the corner masturbating while you're sleeping with their girlfriend like there is a huge difference and this is actually Interesting when we talk about like the woman on stage thing and stuff like that.

Well, I might find it [00:51:00] Really disgusting. To be giving a woman money. Who's like on a, a porn stage or something like that. If I knew some other guy was gooning over, I was successfully having with someone, I would be like, Oh, he's just like a pathetic simp. And this further. Solidifies my own status as the dominant male in this scenario which doesn't like I wouldn't say I, I, I would actively get off to like sharing porn I had made with you, but I wouldn't find it.

It wouldn't make me more gross of you. Yeah. I'd be like, whatever. But you sharing that without me, it's like, you're cutting me out of Dominant thing and you're, you are saying, okay, well, all of you guys have some potential to be at the same level of my husband. But why would it

Simone Collins: still bother you if I had a history on OnlyFans fully anonymized?

Like I did it as a VTuber, for example. Because you

Malcolm Collins: have led a large community to believe, oh, a VTuber? No, I'd be totally okay if you were a VTuber. Well, that's totally anonymized. [00:52:00] Right, I thought you meant like, face changed with AI or something like that, but they're still seeing your real body. Yeah, or

Simone Collins: like, the skin of my body also mildly changed, you know, like everything's just slightly manipulated.

Nothing is, is 100%. I

Malcolm Collins: guess I wouldn't care that much if you, if it was like actually. Well, no, if guys, like, it would matter a degree, but the more you do this, it gets closer to not mattering. It's closer to foot modeling than it is to real, like, OnlyFans or even porn. And, and I should note that for me, like, if we have this, this thing between foot modeling on OnlyFans And you having sex with other men for money or you having sex with other men and then people are watching porn of that.

If you take a you naked on only fans, it is, and we're talking about like a 10 yard foot line here. It is one foot away from the foot modeling.

Simone Collins: Okay. Wait. So, so what would you do if you had a daughter with a really with a really high sex drive, what if you had a daughter with a really high [00:53:00] sex drive, who's like, but I

Malcolm Collins: mean, that's the point I'm making.

Did you, did you understand the analogy I just made?

Simone Collins: No.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. You have two things on the side of the screen here. All right. On one side here, you have actually having sex with someone on a camera for money. Okay. Over here you have foot modeling on OnlyFans. Just being naked on OnlyFans is like over here for me.

In terms of how gross it would make a potential wife. Okay. It's like in the middle It's not like closer to here. It's like these guys were something over something They never really had access to which just makes it seem like pathetic simps to me, right? Like that's not really my wife was using them, you know, without actually giving them anything.

And so like with a daughter, I might be like, well, maybe find ways to engage with that. Or if she had a really high sex drive, i'd be like write romance books for other women.

Simone Collins: And get really good with sex toys. I guess

Malcolm Collins: Yeah I mean i'd say that that and again, i'm not gonna like force my daughter to do anything But [00:54:00] in terms of the best paths forwards I think that you damage enough of your value as in sexual marketplaces or marriage marketplaces, I should say by sleeping around a lot.

It's just not worth it for women really in almost any circumstance.

Simone Collins: Oh, wait a second. You could just encourage them to be lesbians for a while. Right? Yeah. If I was like, well, I was a lesbian. The Bible's not against it. The Bible. But if I were a lesbian slut earlier, would that bother you? How does that compare to another that would make

Malcolm Collins: you higher value?

Okay, so if we have that would make you I slept with like a lot of gold star lesbians Well, not a lot like four or five. But they're like they're like the same in status They're, they're higher. Okay, okay, so a woman with a high sex drive is young. Gold star lesbians are at a totally different level.

Simone Collins: And, and I say this because we found when, from Nalcom's research doing the Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality, that women are just a lot less more to [00:55:00] primary and secondary sexual characteristics. In other words, their orientation isn't really gay straight, it's more dom sub. And so if you really have a high sex drive, the way to go is lesbianism for a while.

If you have some kind of penis fetish, there are so many different types of vibrators and dildos and everything else.

Malcolm Collins: But here's the thing about, well, penetrative sex with a lesbian is a little different. Oh, is it? Yeah, very few lesbians do it though. Oh, okay. But, but anyway, the point being is that So wait,

Simone Collins: okay, wait, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: So

Simone Collins: like,

Malcolm Collins: God, there's so many rules. This is complicated, Malcolm. But hold on, I'm, I'm, might be unique in this. Okay. And people can sound off in the comments, but like, My, I, I've heard of some guys and actually this makes me really look down on a guy when I hear this. I don't, I don't want you to say this before you say it down off in the comments, but when a guy is like, dude, it's so gross that my girl, you know, is hooking up with another girl and now they want like both want to like hook up or whatever, right?

Like, I'm like, how is [00:56:00] this a problem for you? Like guys who get sexually insecure about, Other women. Yeah, that is

Simone Collins: weird. With other

Malcolm Collins: women, it comes off as really, like, Yeah. Like, I don't want to say, like, not even beta, like, omega, like.

Simone Collins: I don't, I don't know what it comes off as. It,

Malcolm Collins: it, it comes off to me as a male as, like, an intrinsically emasculating position.

It's like, how

Simone Collins: is she? Well, I just, I also feel like it's super strawman y. I, I can't even, in my evoked set, like, imagine an archetype of a man who would be. No, no, no, who doesn't is, like, religious screening guys. Oh, well, that's just like virtue signaling. I don't know how you know,

Malcolm Collins: that's who does it and very insecure guys Who think that their woman would leave them for another woman?

Just like guys who don't this happens it happens. It happens Rarely, so it like can conceptually happen, but I think okay, so i'm gonna let out a secret about the lesbian community Okay, so I used to be pretty progressive and everything like that and I slept around a lot right? [00:57:00] and one of the areas that was always like the free sex pipeline was lesbians.

There are a lot of lesbians who don't actually like being lesbians that much. They do it for whatever, whether it's political or personal or emotional reasons, but they really desire. To sleep with men, but be able to do it without it affecting their public reputation or self Oh, so they're

Simone Collins: not seen as slutty because they're lesbians.

You can't be a slutty lesbian.

Malcolm Collins: Well, it's not just that. I mean, they, they want to be seen as the right politics. They want to be seen as the right whatever. Things being like a proper lesbian and everything like that and their status was in the gay community and not being bi as a woman and everything but you know, most women are okay, like just look at the statistics and so a lot of women for the status pretend to be lesbians But if there's a guy who they know is attractive and discreet they Will she constantly with her partner [00:58:00] with men?

Or, or, and, and, and my impression is this is quite common given the number of lesbians who sit with me back today.

Simone Collins: Well, okay. So I guess I guess the key for us as parents that if we're going to take something away from this. Revelation, realization, dynamic that we're now aware of. We need to be really explicit about the risks and downsides of polyamory, especially with our daughters.

But also with our sons, especially post 23. That it is, it causes a lot of knock on effects that we will walk them through explicitly, because the key isn't to say, no, never do this. It's a rule, don't cross the line, because I said so. But instead, This is a heavily taxed activity and here is the tax.

Here is the price you pay. Walk into a road and you could get run over by a car and killed. Get polyamorous and you may never end up getting a, a high value. Or [00:59:00]

Malcolm Collins: if you do, they bring it up all the time. Like it's something that they can lord over you for the rest of your life.

Simone Collins: And that's, that's

Malcolm Collins: tough.

By the way.

Simone Collins: It's a thing that lingers in the back of their mind, even if they don't bring it up. That, that's, that would also really suck.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway. But yeah, that's, that's what I do.

You're right. And yeah, I'm lucky that you, I mean, in a different time. If you were growing up today, have you, would you try like doing OnlyFans or something, or you just

Simone Collins: No, I'm way too asexual for that. Like I've just. You have to be able to pull it off, and I think you've got to, like, Enjoy it a little bit.

Yeah, like, you need to have some kind of spontaneous sex drive. You know, it's like, I'm just, I'm gay for Malcolm, right? Like, there, if, in the absence of Malcolm, there is no sex. If that makes, that doesn't make sense to anyone, but it makes sense to me. So there would just be no way I could ever.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, your program in a way that would be very advantageous for program [01:00:00] biologically for many women from, you know, a lot of different cultural frameworks, not every cultural framework, but certainly, you know, our cultural framework an old, like puritanical culture.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, Yeah, I don't, I don't see this as being so right. I wonder if it's

Simone Collins: heritable. I think it's the autism, to be honest with you. No,

Malcolm Collins: I think it's heritable.

Simone Collins: I think it's heritable, but I also think it's correlated with, clustered with autism.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I've pointed out to people in the past that cultures that, in which you'd have a genetic advantage by being high arousal and sleeping with people a lot, you know, voluntarily, like Catholic culture really relies on that or used to rely on that for to increase their fertility rate.

And I have mentioned as somebody who slept around a lot it's actually noticeable. Girls from Catholic cultural backgrounds are much hornier. They prefer sex much more frequently than the whole

Simone Collins: stereotype of the Catholic school girl or the sexy. None is a thing for a reason.

Malcolm Collins: It might be that this isn't due to repression.

It's due to [01:01:00] genetic selection event. That they would have historically had more children based on their arousal level. And, and their willingness to get into early and frequent relationships.

And as I mentioned, the Catholics used to interpret the line that which the Lord has binded man shall not tear us under to mean that like, if you got into an early relationship and you got pregnant, then it's not that you can never get married again, which is true for some cultures, like in, in, in some cultures, if you get pregnant as a young woman.

You don't automatically marry that guy. You just become ineligible for marriage for the rest of your life. Oh. Because you're, you're, you're basically tainted goods. Whereas in, in Catholic cultures, even for like royals you, you married that guy. Not like High Royals, but like Mid Royals. High Royals got to do whatever they wanted.

The point I'm making here is that this culture motivated High arousal whereas your form of arousal is just more like dedicated arousal.

Like, I'm going to bond with like one individual who I already know internally, [01:02:00] like I'm with for life. And the thing that's going to motivate children is deciding to have children. Not that I didn't have a condom or The pair

Simone Collins: bond. Yeah. Huh. Yeah, that would be Well, I could see it not evolutionarily, because it seems like where we're losing the birth rates in demographic collapse is mistake babies.

And where we need to build up the birth rates is intention babies. But yeah, I don't know. You're very

Malcolm Collins: good for intention babies. I'm very good for

Simone Collins: intention babies, but also intention babies appear to be correlated with much lower birth rates. So Right, and

Malcolm Collins: we need to change that using

Simone Collins: technology. Yes.

Using science. Well, it's been, as always, an immense pleasure.

Malcolm Collins: And do you have another call coming up? I do. Are we reheating some curry?

Simone Collins: Yeah, I was gonna saute more onion and also add more tomato per your comments. I will just

Malcolm Collins: go straight tomato.

Simone Collins: No onion, no more onion.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I don't think I need more onion.

Saute more tomato to try to make the sauce [01:03:00] thicker.

Simone Collins: Okay, and then I'll I'll boil it down for a while. Put in

Malcolm Collins: thickening agent.

Simone Collins: I will not, I don't put in thickening agents. I don't. I know you don't.

Malcolm Collins: I'm just saying don't.

Simone Collins: I like, I like. I'm going to simmer it for a while and then it will be.

Malcolm Collins: From the actual ingredients.

Not from like, you know.

Simone Collins: Totally understand. But also the second night. Curries are always better.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, they're always better. Yeah. And you've already put in more spice, you know, so I don't

Simone Collins: that, that you, your whole thing and the Sichuan chili powder, it was like, it was tasty before and now it's just painful and you're like, Oh, you fixed it.

And I'm like, now I understand that one chef at that Indian restaurant in Scotland who was like, you're going to ruin this. And he was so mad at you. Do you want,

Malcolm Collins: because I like really spicy food. Do you want to put in a little bit of garlic as well? I think I put in from the reheat.

Simone Collins: You want me to saute more garlic before I add the tomato?

Because that's, that's sort of how it would work is I sas more. You add [01:04:00] garlic in, then I add the tomato and the, or

Malcolm Collins: put more ginger in. I don't care. One or the other.

Simone Collins: There's no, I don't have any fresh ginger, unfortunately. Garlic, I think I froze some that I could thaw out, but I don't know if this is, don't you have

Malcolm Collins: already like, like cut up garlic?

Simone Collins: I do. I have, I, I, I. Minced the fresh garlic in bulk and I have that ready to go It's just the ginger I had frozen because ginger Well, you can put garlic and olive oil in the fridge for quite a decent amount of time ginger in the fridge My understanding is you can't leave it there for as long

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I guess I gotta I gotta get ready for this.

Simone Collins: I have to get ready for this. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Bye. Love you

Oh,

Simone Collins: thank you. Malcolm

, we

Malcolm Collins: got to talk about how crazy this thread was. So, you know, GSB Stanford business school, I get this, this class blast.

Simone Collins: Yeah. His, his class. from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, still emails each other occasionally.

Rare, no, rarely,

Malcolm Collins: like once every three years, [01:05:00] one of these goes around. So, it's a big deal to send one, okay? You don't, like, do it quickly. So, anyway we get one on, like, the state of the world, because Trump is now president, and it feels like everything is unraveling for this person. And then, of course, you get this thread of, like, pylons.

Like, everything's unraveling. I can't believe this is happening. And basically, you guys know me. Okay. I had to come in and I think that this summarizes what happened pretty well. Oh God.

Speaker: Good morning, Philadelphia. With us today is

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-3: Malcolm Collins.

Speaker: local business owner and a man with a harrowing story. That's right. A few days ago, three

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-5: Corpos sent me a chain of emails slagging off our boys, Elon and Trump.

Speaker: now, I want to be very clear about something. Um, Mr. Reynolds These pieces of garbage, they don't know who the hell they're dealing with. So these punks I don't know if they wanted money, or they wanted something more sexual. Anyway, I started .

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-6: Magging.

Speaker: Bah! Bah! [01:06:00] I don't see so good, so I missed.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-7: Then of course I get private emails like, Oh, but what about the immigrants? What about USAID? Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker: I ran after them. Bang! Tried to shoot them in the back. But I don't want so good either. Anyway, you guys all think I'm a hero. And I'll accept that responsibility. Now, were you concerned, though, that an innocent bystander may have Look, crime in this city is out of control.

Thank God

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx)-8: We've got two presidents with Trump and Elon absolutely killing it.

Speaker: I don't think one would have done it. I'm gonna go out and buy some more. Okay. And I think you should, too. Don't be a victim. It's time to fight back. Thank you.

Malcolm Collins: But the, the gist is, is it was very interesting to read their perspective on all this because it felt like such a mirror to my own.

I

would

say that a lot of these people are this oligarchical class, right? Like they are They are the man. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Like, I don't know what you, if you went to the Stanford graduate school of business, you aren't fighting the [01:07:00] man anymore. You've become the man. You are the establishment. I don't know what to

Malcolm Collins: tell you.

I burned, I burned all that reputation I gained by becoming a public Republican. Who's not never Trump.. But it was it was interesting to me because All of these people who had entered these oligarchical roles within our society and benefited from the existing social structure Staying within the status quo are of course terrified because the status quo is being overturned Through this administration and nobody, you know, it hurts more from that than people with positions of extent power And it was really fascinating to see the way that they saw this and the same way to me, like I had given up on civilization surviving.

I was like, look, I'm preparing my kids for a post civilization world. I do not think that anything close to something contiguous with our current or ancestral culture can survive. And now given what Trump and Elon and Vance, the triumvirate have been doing I now feel [01:08:00] hope that civilization may survive.

And at the same time, they had this exact opposite perspective of like, as an avalanche, society is collapsing from the status quo that they knew and believed was I guess inherently good because it was the status quo. And I can see that, if you're benefiting from it. Why question What's going on? You know, and so, for them, it's felt like just piece after piece.

They're like, it started slow and now it's this giant avalanche and the zone is completely flooded and I don't even know where to begin. And these are the most competent, like these aren't your democratic political class, like the, the blustering idiots or whatever. This is the behind closed doors, smartest, most competent vetted people who are running large companies.

Oh yeah. They are at a loss. The silent ruling class. Yeah. And they're just repeating this like, Oh, the, you know, this is like the Nazis. This is a dictator. You know, 51 percent of Americans voted for [01:09:00] this. Right. Ignoring what happened in Germany. I love it. One of the comments on the thing was like, they don't understand like voting in Germany.

They don't understand representation. No, I understand well over 50 percent of your citizens voted for a candidate who was right leaning and said that they would end immigration. And yet that will. End up not happening because the center right in your country is a bunch of traitors who don't care about the will of the people and only care about maintaining the status quo and their positions of institutional privilege.

So they won't side with the other side. They won't, the AFD, who they need to to get votes passed to handle immigration in an appropriate way. And your people will be erased. from history, period. There is, there is no going back. If you look at your current fertility rate and the differential fertility rates or the rate that immigrants are coming into your country, there's no going back.

There's no hope. You don't have another shot after this. They blew your last shot.

And I think that any shot that you do have now, and this is the really [01:10:00] horrifying thing about what the left is doing, especially in Europe, is going to look like, well, racism, right? Because the only way that they've shown the right, that the right can operate is, okay, we can't win an election, we can't win the popular vote, so what, we have to act with force now?

Oh, and you've imported so many people into our country who are hostile to our cultures and, and do not want to see this culture continue anymore we have to get them out of the country, like, we have to put them somewhere, and that's going to look like a horrifying mass deportation. That is going to be inhumane in the extreme because you can't just deport that many people without it being inhumane in the extreme.

But, you know, now in Germany, around 25 percent of the population is a descendant of somebody who migrated after the 1950s. Like that is absolutely wild. It's a pretty rapid

Simone Collins: shift in composition for sure.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This is, this is not about like, Oh, immigrants should be allowed to come to our country or not.

[01:11:00] Especially when you look at the terrorist attacks that are happening regularly now in Germany. Like this is getting wild at this point but anyway, anyway so, you know, that was my perspective reading this and it's just so interesting that I do feel like we're winning. I do feel like the opposite of them, like it's like an avalanche of.

Oh my god, this old system was leading humanity to extinction. And now somebody's trying to fix this. Somebody's fixing the bloated bureaucracy. Somebody's doing things that could fix fertility rates. Somebody is fixing our trust in institutions. Getting rid of the media, which had become a basically a lie machine, and everybody knew that at this point.

Getting rid of, of, of DEI. Recently launched our initiative, DEI remediation. com. We actually have that URL. And we're going to be working to see if we can implement these services to help make companies more efficient. But I don't know what angry responses I'm going to get for sending that. I just did that thing of opening a door, throwing a grenade into a room and being like, peace.

And I think it'll

Simone Collins: be the same thing that happens with most. [01:12:00] Urban monoculture situations, realistically, which is shadow banning. I mean, it's just even more people who are now going to make sure that no matter what you are frozen out of anything that they're involved with, which they probably weren't fans of you anyway, to begin with, so no loss.

Malcolm Collins: Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. No, no. I mean the people who want to maintain their respect of the oligarchical class of the mainstream urban monoculture, like I'm toxic to them, so they can't utilize me for anything. Whereas the people who, you know, care about the dissonant thinkers and stuff like that, I am very useful to them, and they'll be like, oh yeah, this would be, this would be great.

So yeah. Well, do you want me to get started, Sivona?

Simone Collins: Let's go.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on just a second here.

Simone Collins: Oh. But yeah. Ha ha ha.