Engagement Challenges and 'Skin in the Game'

In this episode of Dharma Lab, we sit down with our friend and colleague Dr. Simon Goldberg, one of the world’s leading researchers on meditation apps. Together, we explore what the data really say about digital practice — what’s working, what’s not, and how even a few minutes a day can reduce stress and support wellbeing. It’s a conversation about technology, habits, and the ways meditation is quietly transforming our minds and bodies — changes that science can measure only in part, but that reach far beyond the lab.

Highlights from the Episode

* From the Himalayas to the App Store — A historical reflection on how meditation once required crossing mountains to find a teacher, and how that same wisdom is now available instantly on our phones.

* The Science of Small Practice — Dr. Simon Goldberg shares data showing that even five minutes of daily meditation can meaningfully reduce stress, ease anxiety, and support emotional balance.

* Measurable Shifts in the Body — New research reveals tangible biological changes from short, consistent practice — including lower inflammation markers and shifts in gut health and emotional language.

* Beyond the Lab — Richie Davidson discusses the limits of current research, noting that while short-term studies capture early benefits, the deepest changes from contemplative practice may unfold years later — far beyond the reach of most scientific follow-ups.

In case you missed it, check out a written contextual summary of this podcast here:

Podcast Chapter List

00:00 – Intro

02:00 – Welcome & introduction to Dr. Simon Goldberg

03:00 – From Himalayan pilgrimages to instant apps

05:00 – Simon on learning to meditate alone & the promise of digital tools

06:00 – Richie on technology democratizing Dharma

09:00 – Cort on self-taught practice before apps and books as teachers

10:00 – Do meditation apps actually work? The research overview

11:00 – What the data say about mental health benefits

12:00 – Comparing apps to in-person training and effect sizes

16:00 – The real-world time course of practice change

18:00 – How long do studies actually run? Follow-ups and limits

19:00 – What common measures miss about deep transformation

21:00 – “Ten percent happier”? Translating effect sizes to real life

22:00 – Individual differences and why ruminators benefit most

24:00 – The BeWell study design and Healthy Minds app trial

26:00 – Meditation vs education-only conditions and key findings

28:00 – Biological markers: inflammation and gut microbiome (gut health) changes

31:00 – Language shifts and reduced self-focus

32:00 – Retention and long-term benefits after practice ends

34:00 – Delayed effects and long horizons of mind-training

36:00 – Engagement challenges and the “hockey-stick” drop-off

40:00 – Habit formation, commitment, and why apps fade

41:00 – Behavioral economics and remembering practice under stress

42:00 – The non-linear path of real change

43:00 – The future of digital well-being: AI & personalization

44:00 – Integrating practice into daily life through technology

45:00 – Just-in-time interventions and real-time support

47:00 – From “Anytime Anywhere” to “Every time Everywhere” practice

49:00 – Closing reflections on the promise of Digital Dharma

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