Controversies in Online Communities

In this eye-opening episode, we delve into the often-overlooked discourse of how radical feminist ideologies are shaping perceptions of marriage and relationships. The hosts explore terms like 'weaponized incompetence,' 'cognitive load,' and 'married single moms,' revealing how mainstream media and feminist bloggers are influencing women to reframe their relationships with men in potentially toxic ways. They discuss the potential impact on marriages, offer methods for de-radicalizing partners, and emphasize the importance of open communication and relationship contracts. Join us for a comprehensive look at the subtle ways feminist radicalization could be affecting your relationship.

Simone Collins: , [00:00:00] this is mainstream and I don't hear red pillars talking about this. I don't hear mgtow talking about this. And that's, that's why I wanted to highlight this is like, what are you not aware? Like there's some new like weapon, like a new drone weapon that's being used. Like, why are men not aware of this, this, for these forms of weaponization. They shouldn't, they need to be aware of words like weaponized incompetence.

like the cowering slobs, they are, they hide their sexism in the language of foe equality, quote.

It's not that I think you should do all the work, we just have different standards.

Malcolm Collins: The female standard that is often demanded of the husband mm-hmm. Is not demanded because it is practical. There is no reason I actually need to fold all of the kids' clothes that go.

Yeah. Malcolm's

Simone Collins: like, are they gonna get sick?

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm. That is you, that is like. The husband did. I'll explain the male version of this demanding sex constantly from the wife and the wife being like, well, you know, I just don't, you don't need

Simone Collins: that to survive. You could just, you don't

Malcolm Collins: need that [00:01:00] much sex or that kinky of sex in those ways. Yeah.

And the husband's like, well, that's just what I expect. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah.

Would you like to know more?

Simone Collins: God. Now I'm afraid of botching the openings because you're gonna just use all of it anyway. Here I go.

Malcolm Collins: You know, I'm gonna use that part right there. You just said, now I'm afraid of watching the openings.

You're the worst.

Simone Collins: So much. You're the

worst.

Okay.

Hello Malcolm. I'm so excited to be speaking with you today because I'm gonna go over how feminists, radicalize wives against their husbands. This is a conspiracy. It is getting worse, and there is no escape. So if you are a man, if you ever plan on marrying a woman with a vain, you need to arm yourself.

You need to be ready. You need to be prepared. So I'm gonna walk you through the primary. I think that, that, hold on. I,

Malcolm Collins: I find this topic really interesting because it's something that [00:02:00] you clearly see. We had a fan gift us a subscription to a feminist blog for feminist, not, not a

Simone Collins: fan man, a family friend, and someone I deeply ad admire.

That's family. We're not gonna name her. 'cause what if she's, you know, what if she's friends with this author? But

Malcolm Collins: thank you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't know if they're friends with the author, but anyway, so fa Family Friend. It gives us a a, a, a subscription for us to look into of. What it is like to, to read these deep feminist mother blah.

And it was horrifying. It was horrifying. And you could see was in it because I've heard from so many people online or my friends, is I was a perfectly good husband. I was dating a perfectly reasonable person. And then she became convinced of all of these weird feminist ideas that like normal life was abusive.

Yeah. And something that we will get into in this, 'cause it's something that she told me this morning. She's like, Malcolm reading this blog, if I bought into this, I could find a way to hate you on every single one of the issues that Oh yeah. Every,

Simone Collins: every issue I am gonna [00:03:00] come share. I could, despite Malcolm being an above and beyond husband who does more work, who just like constantly floors me.

And is objectively incredible as a partner, I could make him a villain under any of these narratives. I could come up with copious examples, and if I chose to frame him in one of these negative lights, I could make him look like a complete monster. So let, let me get into it though because let's just break it down and make this really compact for people so that they can actually like, go through all of this and really prepare themselves.

The five main ways that I see feminist poisoning women against their husbands or, or just women against the idea of marriage or dating men at all is one, they reframe things that wives and mothers typically prefer to do and enjoy doing is things that they're, they're forced to do and things that they resent which is, is really annoying.

They, they promote cognitive load discourse. We'll get into that along with married single mom discourse, which is related but still different and new. And they. They also just reframe innocuous actions by men [00:04:00] as, as being insidious. And also just sort of reframe, like, and you're gonna unpack all of these, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think a, a big one is that they just, they, they are extremely, like the double standard that they establish is insane. So I'll just start with that, using an example from this substack that was shared with us by our friend which is not just any random feminist substack.

So this is, this is a substack called Liberating Motherhood. It's by Z Vine, who is. She's the number seven health and wellness writer on Substack with over 30,000 subscribers, many of which are paid 30,000.

Malcolm Collins: This is a popular 'cause I read through this Substack and it was pure relationship poison.

Simone Collins: No, yeah.

This is, I'm, yeah, just to, just to give you, yeah, like this is not obscure random, like red pill forum, like I Return of Men. I don't even know if they have anywhere close to that level of engagement. You know, like, like Return of Kings

Malcolm Collins: is what you're saying. Sorry. Return of

Simone Collins: Kings. What? It's been a while. I, I'm You wrote most

Malcolm Collins: of them [00:05:00] once, by the way.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. That, gosh, that was a lifetime ago. I'm sure that there's some new red pill thing, but I mean, people talk about like, oh, red Fellow and Mick Taylor, like the, the, the radicalized. Anti-man movement is also big. And I'm just trying to point out number seven, health and wellness writer on Substack. And just to point out sort of the double standard that's here on one of her wedding anniversaries, Zvi lines summarized green flags from her husband.

'Cause she is married two-way man, which is incredible to me.

Malcolm Collins: This man's life must be a living hell, but continue, I don't,

Simone Collins: I don't wanna live his life.

Note I removed a section here about the green flag she saw in her husband, uh, because I wanted to get to the meat of specifically how, , feminists turn wives against their husbands and less focus on just what hypocrites they are.

Both you and I know their hypocrites. The reason you're here is to learn how to fight against them and the new tactics they're using.

so let's go just point by point into the, the top ways that [00:06:00] women are radicalizing wives against their husbands. And let's go into, I'm, I'm gonna use some of the posts that are written by Z Vine because they're great. I'll also go to some larger examples, but she just so well articulates many of these points.

And other feminists who I followed, have referred to her work, even had her on his interviews, and they're like, who

Malcolm Collins: is she?

Who is she? Zan, Heim,

Simone Collins: Z Vine,

She's the number seven health worker. Okay. So

Malcolm Collins: it's the writer of this.

Okay, great. ,

Simone Collins: The author of this Substack, I, I'm gonna use a lot of her articles to illustrate things, but I, you know, these are, these are larger points that are really common and I'll also demonstrate that as well. But she has a really great example of my first.

Zone of female radicalization against wives, which is just reframing preferences as hated obligations. So you remember that episode we did, where we went through that survey of male and female household chore and family chore preferences, right? Yes.

Malcolm Collins: They showed like females prefer, you know, cooking food and being in the kitchen and, and house [00:07:00] cleaning and men prefer, you know, outdoor work and mowing the lawn and taking out trash, et cetera.

Yes.

Simone Collins: Yeah. This, this research, it was, it was very inconvenient from like a feminist perspective. 'cause it, it asked men and women both what they enjoyed doing more and what they anticipated doing more time doing, and it was just super clear. I. That men and women enjoy different things and as surprise to nobody spend more time doing the things they enjoy more.

But no, many of these feminists are reframing the things that women enjoy doing and would like to do and prefer to spend more time doing as, as hated obligations. So one of Zon Vill. Substack posts under liberating motherhood is called the dad privilege checklist. Which, which does exactly this, it fosters resentment by framing tasks women do because they prefer to be the ones who do them as tasks that are shoved upon them.

So she, she just includes this checklist that I think men are supposed to read to like, understand their unseen privilege. Okay. So here's just a small [00:08:00] excerpt that I just copied and pasted 'cause I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but they include. I do not help my children write thank you notes or, or send presents to relatives.

Yet they still get sent. I have never planned birthday party games. I have never decorated for a birthday party. My children attend summer camp or other summer activities, but I do not research these camps or registered my child in them. I do not pack my children for a trip, but they always have clothes.

Malcolm Collins: This is, yeah, this is like, this is a trap. You, you, if, if your wife is reading stuff like this, she's gonna end up hating most husbands. Yeah. Because most husbands don't do that stuff. Yeah. Because a lot of that stuff doesn't need to be done except for the

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like I, I sent, I do, I send the thank you notes.

I get the, I get the, the birthday presents. I, I, I do the packing for the trips, but it's 'cause I, I like being in control of those things.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But the idea that you would reframe an otherwise good out mm-hmm. Because the No, no. Yeah. Like even me reading

Simone Collins: this, even me reading this, there's like a little part in my head that's like.

Oh wait, like how, [00:09:00] how dare I be burdened with these? You know, like, oh, I was supposed to have help with these. You mean I didn't have to do this all by myself? Like they, they make it seem like it's something that I, I wasn't supposed to enjoy in the first place. Yeah. Well, and

Malcolm Collins: I would've also said that none of these things, there's things that needed to happen except for the packing for trips, right?

Like, and the packing for trips I would've done, I just wouldn't have folded everything the way that you do and stuff like that. And that's why the women do it because they want every, they don't want it all thrown in a bag. And if they didn't care, if it was thrown into a bag, the husband would be doing it and everybody eats it.

Remember

Simone Collins: when we went on that, I think it was the trip, like a, a, like a very romantic early trip we had where we went to a really fancy

hotel. You literally, you literally brought all your clothes in a trash bag and we're walking into, oh yes, I remember that. Your deli square at the exclusive Resorts hotel.

And here I'm with my like suitcase and my little fascinator and my coat. I brought all my clothes in a trash

Malcolm Collins: bag because I didn't wanna buy it walking, carrying this [00:10:00] trash bag behind you. But that is how men approach this. So it's the same as the thank you Don't need thank you notes. No one expects a thank you note, right?

It's the same, but

Simone Collins: it makes a difference. It shows that you really do acknowledge, you know, like how many times have we given gift and just wondered if, if they ever even received it to

Malcolm Collins: men, not to men to birthday. If you talk about like birthday activities as well, for example, like, yeah, that's. Kids don't need birthday parties.

No. They plan their own. Our family, we don't do birthday parties. If a kid wants a birthday party, they can do their own, you know? That's not our, well, if they ask for one no, like

Simone Collins: Octavian might want a Nerf gun party. And if so, we, we do it. But like, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: we'll put one together if they like, ask for one.

And, but I, I put the planning on him. Right. Like, I think that that's something kids should learn how to do. Why are you doing this for your kid? You weirdo, like, you know, if you have like seven or eight kids, like a reasonable number and you're not at some like, piddling, like two or three kids, you know, when, when you can't do these giant birthdays over and over.

Well, women,

Simone Collins: no. Here's the thing though, and this goes back to that survey that we had [00:11:00] covered in a separate episode when it came to things like holidays and parties and stuff. Women really enjoy that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Like they're not doing it because they have to. You do the holiday all

Malcolm Collins: more than I do.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But they, they like the average woman likes doing this kind of thing.

And that's the, that's the, that's the issue is that this makes them think. That they should present it, which is, is just, I mean, first that makes women miserable for no reason. It, it turns their hobbies into something that, well,

Malcolm Collins: what's so fascinating about this before we go further is there isn't the male equivalent like a magazine even, even if I'm looking at like manosphere stuff.

Yeah. When I look at Manosphere stuff, it isn't like a bunch of ways that my wife isn't living up to expectations that are like stuff that average women do. It's typically like a bunch of ways that I'm supposed to act towards my wife that are douchey and would make most women hate you. But no, I mean, like, that's why that content is, is toxic.

This is very different. There is no male equivalent to trying to get men, men to reframe [00:12:00] normal gendered behavioral differences as toxic.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a fair point.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think it's that women want a reason to hate their husband. I think women want to feel, we've talked about this in other episodes they do.

Simone Collins: They, I don't, I don't know. I think, I think women. I think the average, normal, reasonable person wants to love who they're with and be happy, and I don't know what this is. I don't, I don't.

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no. I'm gonna push it back. You can go to our episode on dystopias, like teen Dystopias. Yeah. And that people, women read these teen dystopias because they crave the dystopia.

Mm. They, they live in worlds that are too good and the female brain, sort of like short circuits, especially during their adolescence, if they live in an environment without enough active threats. And so they begin to reframe themselves. No. So you, this patriarchy

Simone Collins: slash men evil thing is a God, I need a threat.

And then like,

Malcolm Collins: God, I need a threat. There's a man [00:13:00] sitting over there

Simone Collins: and it's like,

Malcolm Collins: there's the threat. Okay. Yeah. The person you interact with most in your life, reframe them as a threat and you'll feel good. Because men don't do this. They don't, they don't read a bunch of stuff that reframes normal things as and if you look at these dystopias that we've talked about, it's about women wanting to live in a fantasy where their life is harder and more oppressive. And where, you know, there's some outside sort of fascist force that's controlling everything that they do.

And where they're different and unique and special and three guys like them. And that's, that's the, that's the utopia.

As to where this comes from, if you look throughout human history, , women were much more likely to be in environments that were actually structurally oppressive of them. , Where they were actually treated as an underclass to such an extent where if they were aware of this or didn't lean into it, , they would be, you know, , the best case, lose access to reproductive partners, you know, be seen as low status.

And so people didn't marry them and didn't reproduce with them. , Or worse case, [00:14:00] just been killed. , So there was an active pressure for most of human history that differentially, , rewarded women versus men who saw the world as structured against them, and, , accepted that,

and I think that when they reach adulthood as well some women are just like, where is my threat? Where is the oppressor? And if there isn't an oppressor, I will manufacture what

Simone Collins: that, yeah.

Okay. That can help explain this. 'cause I'm just like, there's no, like, no one wins from this. Men don't win. Win women. Yeah. Terrible in good marriages. Don't win. Yeah. I, yeah, I, okay. Anyway, let's move on to number two. 'cause cognitive load discourse, which is the next thing that is really big is. Just so underrated.

So I'm gonna, and this is, this even shows up on Google Ngram viewer, so I'm gonna show you on WhatsApp an image of it. 'cause I, I just was like, whoa. Google Ngram viewer is a little bit different from Google Trends because we're talking about what's showing up in public [00:15:00] published content rather than just, oh my God.

Cognitive

Malcolm Collins: load. It's exploded.

Simone Collins: It is exploded since like 2000. Essentially. It's just like this, this, there's a whole new like, out of nowhere concept. And what, what it basically has to do with is it, it has to do with the mental, well, it's sometimes referred to as mental load too. So the mental load refers to the often invisible cognitive and emotional labor involved in managing a household and family life with which disproportionately falls on women.

This includes planning, organizing, anticipating needs, and delegating tasks leading to stress and potential burnout. The, it's the thinking work behind the scenes that keeps everything running smoothly. And, and basically. It's, it's, you know, what you did on steroids. So I think most men know the, you know, what you did trope where like, yes, where the woman is, woman is mad at a man, and the man's like, what did I do?

And she's like, you know what I did. And that there's this expectation that's very toxic, that men are supposed to somehow read women's minds and anticipate their [00:16:00] needs and then have not offended them or done whatever it is that they needed without knowing. And I also, I just wanna show like, this is not something that just, you know, is showing up on feminists, blogs.

I'm, I'm showing you here is. A Washington Post article. So like mainstream publication. Okay. And it's, it's, it's titled being CEO of the household is weighing women down. Here's an, an excerpt from it.

Malcolm Collins: We can still tend to handle the cognitive labor of households anticipating everyone's needs, planning, organizing, scheduling, and more.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And the author writes, when I found myself thoroughly burned out seven months into parenthood, I first thought I needed to change my attitude and get better organized. My husband and I, both immigrants with full-time work, were lucky to have family members come from overseas to help with our baby during the first year of his life.

So a lot of childcare and lighthouse work were taken care of. And yet the ceaseless anticipating of everyone's needs, identifying options and filling them, planning, organizing, scheduling, monitoring progress and everything else that [00:17:00] goes into managing a household, what is now called cognitive labor, left me depleted.

My husband promised me he would. Try to help but didn't. Mm. So

Malcolm Collins: I wanna be clear here and, and, and reframe this so people can understand what's really being complained about.

Mm-hmm.

They are complaining about, and, and, and this is what's said in this very title of cognitive labor of households. Mm-hmm.

Which is. Planning, organizing and scheduling IE controlling your partner's life and daily schedule. They're saying I have too much control over my husband's life. Right. That is, that is a burden. 'cause like

Simone Collins: I, I, I, I feel like these things are, I would like to have this control. I isn't

Malcolm Collins: empowerment as oppression, it's showing.

That Well, one, like the way you fix what is making women like this unhappy mm-hmm. Is not by giving them more agency, it's not by giving them more [00:18:00] power. Because apparently the very agency and power they have over the, it's a burden, it are the source of their distress and are the tools that they are using.

Because keep in mind, you're not just talking about these individuals, you're talking about the individuals who they influence with this. Mm-hmm. They take a woman who reads this. Who, you know, because her husband is, is, you know, open to progressive ideals and open to gender egalitarianism has said, Hey, let's have an equal relationship.

Or let's even have a relationship where like with our family, you know, I say I wake up in the morning and I know what I'm doing that day because my wife has put it on my calendar.

And that is not me having control over my wife, that is my wife having control over me, right? That is, that is me being open to an area of gender egalitarianism where I'm like, she's just better at in the moment sort of, schedule management.

But in addition to that, she prefers it. She doesn't like me managing her schedule.

Simone Collins: Well, there, so there, I don't know though. So what's, what's emerging though, and what you're pointing to here is, is something that I, I. I'm just connecting now because I [00:19:00] just watched my second YouTube video today on this, this princess treatment woman who's like on TikTok and an influencer.

Mm-hmm. And she's like some kind of Christian woman who's been trying to be an influencer for 10 years. And finally she kicked off because she has gotten really open about the fact she gets the princess treatment from her husband. And examples of clips from her that have gone viral are clips of her talking about how, you know, she, her husband puts her shoes on and when they go to restaurants, she doesn't like to talk to the, the hostess or the waiter.

Like when the waiter asks her what she wants to order she just looks to her husband and makes sure that her husband orders for her and, and doesn't want the staff to talk to her. She wants her husband to talk for her. And.

Malcolm Collins: By the way, I don't know if you know this but that is actually traditional manners.

That's the way I was taught growing up. No

Simone Collins: 100% is traditional manners, but like she, she she frames it more as just like, no, no, no. I understand

Malcolm Collins: that within a modern context, but I just, just so people know, if you grew up in the south like I did or, or I guess any region you [00:20:00] absolutely

Simone Collins: order for the woman.

Yeah. I was taught

Malcolm Collins: that you're supposed to always say the lady would like mm-hmm. And then you order for the woman and then you order for yourself. Yeah. That is the way that you do the order. Yeah. Continue.

Simone Collins: Absolutely. So that is, that is absolutely true. And I think what's really interesting about the discourse around her and other influencers who typically from a, a more Christian perspective now, but of course the, the liberal medias that's covering this is like, oh, it's A-B-D-S-M thing.

Are, I think people find this offensive liberal women find this offensive because many of them. Are sort of stuck in this cognitive load discourse and are seeing all the responsibilities they've taken on as now, even though they prefer to have this control, now they've been trained to think that the control is toxic and terrible and they resent having it.

And then they have this weird pull where they see these like super rad relationships and they're like, oh, that's so offensive and evil. But like, oh, like I, I like, you [00:21:00] can't, you can't have it both ways, right? Like, they don't want, like, they don't want their husband to anticipate their needs. But they have to also derate the woman whose husband anticipates her needs.

Well,

Malcolm Collins: no. They want to hate both. They want to, and this is what I was telling you, they are looking for ways to recontextualize their lives as oppressed. They would see their life as oppressed. If they were the princess, they would see their life as oppressed. If they are the woman who gets to make their husband's schedule Yeah, they, they, they, the goal is, and this is why this is so dangerous, because you don't know if your wife is reading this or whatever.

Mm-hmm. It's to put in front of a woman. Things that reframe choices that you gave her because it was what she wanted in the moment. As IEI want to have, I don't like it when you disrupt my schedule. I don't like it when you book things. For me, I like to have control over these things. Yeah. To reframe these kindnesses you've done for them as a person.

As pressure.

Simone Collins: Well, and actually no. So here's a great example is there's another BBC article I just shared, like I shared a screenshot with you on WhatsApp called The Hidden [00:22:00] Load. How Thinking of Everything holds Moms back and this article goes so far as to present the concept of cognitive load as a sign that gender equality is.

Remission. So here's what they say. An increasing body of research indicates that for household responsibilities, women perform far more cognitive and emotional labor than men. Understanding why, could help explain why gender equality has not only stalled, but is going backwards despite being more discussed than ever.

And a broader understanding of this behind the scenes of labor could help couples redistribute the work more equally. Something that while initially difficult could play a significant role in helping mothers lighten their load. So they're, they're actively saying here that, that feminism is sliding back and cognitive load is proof of that.

But let's, let's, let's go to like, well, I

Malcolm Collins: actually want to, you know, raise a flag here to be like, the women who watch this podcast, you know, be aware of content like this when you see Yeah, yeah. Because

Simone Collins: this is like, it's, it's subtle. [00:23:00] Like you might read some of it and be like. Well, whatever. Like sometimes it slips in.

That

Malcolm Collins: seems reasonable, right? Yeah. But, but what this inexorably does is make you hate any relationship.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because there is actually,

Simone Collins: yeah. So here's how I first started consuming. It was like, it, it came up in the concept of like hot gossip, like all this relationship gone sideways. And then like, that's how they get you.

Like, first you just watch to, to watch a dumpster fire, and then suddenly you're being steeped in this, this, this discourse, this radicalizing discourse

Malcolm Collins: continue.

Simone Collins: So sort of like a subset, I would say, of cognitive load discourse. Like another sort of SubT trend within it is, is what you can call the the married single mother discourse.

And so here I'm showing you Google trends

Malcolm Collins: and I would, oh, oh gosh, what, what is this?

Simone Collins: It's this is the, the married single mother concept. A married single mother is a woman who is legally married but feels like a single parent due to her husband's lack of involvement in household and childcare [00:24:00] responsibilities.

This can result in her managing the majority of parenting and domestic duties alone, leading to increased stress and potential resentment. This is sometimes presented in on, in social media as like, women being described as having three children because her husband is like the third child and they have two kids together.

Yeah. So this show, it's like framed differently in different videos, but it's showing up a lot more. And I wanted to highlight this subset of the cognitive load discourse because it is another really big thing and women are being more than un subtly. Led to see the concept of a husband as another dependent that makes their lives worse.

So, this, this also comes like, there's parents.com article that I, I can, I can read a little bit from that helps to also give you some of the, the red flag vocabulary to look for. Go for it. I just sent you a screenshot so you can see this is real, like these are mainstream publications. The article's called What is a Married Single Mom from the article.

Malcolm Collins: This is New York Post, which is a conservative publication. Oh, sorry,

Simone Collins: that's, yeah. Sorry. I'm also [00:25:00] gonna read from that, but let me, sorry. Here's the screenshot for the parents.com. Yeah. New York Post. I'm also gonna read you a, a quote from 'cause Yeah, again, these are mainstream publications that are, are very.

Like a lot of people are reading this is, this is normalized discourse and many to be aware of it. 'cause I think men really aren't paying attention to it. Like this is no, they don't know

Malcolm Collins: that their wives are being exposed to these sorts of articles.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So parents.com, what does a married single mom reads?

Part of it weaponized incompetence, default parent mental load and invisible load. These phrases have entered the parenting conversation over the past few years, particularly on social media. They may sound new buzzy and at least in. The case of weaponized incompetence, inflammatory, they all serve the same purpose.

To point out that one parent, usually the woman in a heterosexual relationship, often ends up with more responsibilities, seen or unseen. Here's a new one for you. Married single mom. The phrase emerge in discussions around a viral video of a mom exiting her car with a handful of stuff in her two children.

She essentially falls onto her toddler while [00:26:00] trying to remove her younger child from the car. Meanwhile, a man is standing there with a phone in his hand doing nothing to help. And then from the New York Post article, it's titled, worrying Married Single Moms Trend shows that modern relationships are not working.

By the way, I have

Malcolm Collins: to, I have to say to people, the image on the parents' article that, that, that says, what is a married single mom? What it is, is an image of a black mom serving food to two black children while a white dad. I guess stepdad maybe is in the background, clearly working to support the family.

It

Simone Collins: looks like he's on like a, an, he's not like playing video games

Malcolm Collins: or something. He has like a bunch of,

Simone Collins: like, he's paying bills.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. And, and do you wanna be

Simone Collins: the one who's like, she's literally just putting jam on toast. This is not a complicated breakfast.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. There seems to be implication here as well that he married into and is now supporting this family while the wife is not working.

He is working and supporting them, and he's the bad guy.

Simone Collins: Well, and that's the, this, like one of these overlying themes here is the double standard. Is that [00:27:00] like, okay, well women are responsible for anticipating people's emotional needs and sending thank you notes, but we don't talk about this sort of default of like, well, when it comes down to it, the man's expected to provide the money.

When it comes down to it. If there's a fire, the man's expected to run into the burning house to get the parakeet because God forbid the parakeet burn. Or, you know, the man's expected to descend or think have a

Malcolm Collins: specific instance here. Like what, where does that come from? No, it's just

Simone Collins: like when, so when it, when it comes to like.

Physical danger when it comes to financial security, all these things. Men have the cognitive load, men are the front lines. Yeah. And we don't talk about that. We don't talk about the fact, like, you know, there are people in our lives who are the, the sole breadwinners for their families. And I'm sure their wives, who in many cases, you know, they're, they're stay at home wives.

They, they, you know, they don't have to worry about the finances and, and yeah, they have the cognitive load of all the mothering and parenting and whatever.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: But their husbands also have the cognitive load of, oh my God, if I [00:28:00] lose my job. Like, everyone's depending on me. And we've seen that way on men and, and you know, just there, everyone has a cognitive load, you know, I mean, what I mean, there, there are, there are absolutely dead weights of that are both men and women in relationships.

But on average, in a, in a typical functional marriage, everyone has a cognitive load. I. You know.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and it's, and it is, it's this restructuring of I have responsibilities. How dare I have responsibilities?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I have things I'm supposed to do as myself. I have things I'm supposed now. It's not that there are not men who are capable of just not picking up any aspect of a relationship.

And, and I, and I do feel that but there are

Simone Collins: women who do that too.

Malcolm Collins: There are women who do that too. But I, I will say that like when I hear about the normalization, even in the prenatal list community of women doing stuff that I see as deeply unfair like I know of one prenatal list where the husband works and [00:29:00] makes money for the family and supports the family and the wife is a stay at home wife.

And she said, I won't go above for kids till you start helping with childcare. And it's like you, you start helping out more around the house. You start helping out more around my duties. It's like. You do nothing but childcare. Like what? What are you talking about? Like, and, and he conceded to this, right?

Like seeing it as a thing to concede to. And I'm like, this is deeply unfair and it is really messed up that your wife normalized to this. I think they only that, that her core thing in life was the production and care of children. And yet that is too much for her. That is, no, you also need to not just care for me.

It, it reminds me,

You've gotta swim kick with your legs. I can't kick. Yes you can. I can't kick you just have to save me. I need your help. No, you just have to save me,[00:30:00]

Kyle.

Malcolm Collins: well,

Simone Collins: what what bothers me even more is we know of couples who got married planned on having four, five kids. Like that was the understanding. The stay at home wife and mother who they send their kids in this, I'm thinking of one case where they send their kids to private school and, and they have nannies and babysitters, and they

Malcolm Collins: only got to three kids and they stopped.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And, and the husband wanted more. And the wife was just like, well, three kids is too much for me. Even though the kids, even though they had No, and they had,

Malcolm Collins: they had, they had a staff, they had a night nurse. They had preschools, like nice preschools and everything. Yeah. So it goes

Simone Collins: both ways. I mean, there, there are dead weights.

Absolutely. On both ways. And I like, I know women who absolutely have been married, single moms whose husbands are like, oh, I'm suffering with mental health problems. Like my anxiety, I can't work, I can't do anything. They

Malcolm Collins: are like progressive husbands who do that bs like, more often than not. Yeah.

Honestly. Yeah, because, because they normalize to this sort of therapy culture. But the, the point I'm making here is, any guy, no matter how [00:31:00] good, can be framed as wizard hundred percent situation.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I could take any of these and if I wanted to cherry pick data, I could make you out to be the worst.

Also, if you wanted to cherry pick, you know, red pillar data, you could totally make me out to be the worst. Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, actually, I don't know, you don't do anything wrong,

Simone Collins: but,

Malcolm Collins: You was

Simone Collins: so sweet to me. Ah, but you're wrong.

Malcolm Collins: I don't, I don't know. Or

Simone Collins: Malcolm, I think that the, the easiest thing you can always do is just like, well, obviously I'm gonna divorce rape you eventually, so Of

Malcolm Collins: course.

So it's what you're gonna do in the future, right? Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's because, you know,

Simone Collins: that's, that's, I'm, I'm just, this is the buildup. You know, I'm, I'm just really getting like all my hooks in you so that when I eventually tear you apart, it's as devastating as possible.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway.

That is, I just, I won't see, I said this morning, you're the, you're the scorpion and from the scorpion and the frog analogy, it's my

Simone Collins: nature.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yeah. It's just, it's your nature. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So from the, the NY post article just to, to show. How [00:32:00] pervasive this is. They quote one Ms. Dober who works at Melbourne's enriching lives psychology clinic, and said more often couples are, quote, evaluating division of household chores. End quote, in response to a huge uptake in conversations as women quote, understand that each person in the household contributes to the mess of the life.

Therefore, they should be able to take responsibility and participate for the upkeep in the upkeep of the home or their life together. End quote. So this is showing up in couples counseling. This is showing up in therapy culture. This is, this is, this is commercially a thing. This is an end grand viewer.

This is in Google Trends. This is showing up in NY post, Washington post parents.com, bbc, like, this is mainstream and I don't hear red pillars talking about this. I don't hear mgtow talking about this. And that's, that's why I wanted to highlight this is like, what are you not aware? Like you need to know.

Like, let's say that like there's some new like weapon, like a new drone weapon that's being used. You know, we're talking [00:33:00] about like the new forms of warfare that are come, like, why are men not aware of this, this, for these forms of weaponization. They shouldn't, they need to be aware of words like weaponized incompetence.

You know, like this is, wait,

Malcolm Collins: what does weaponized incompetence mean? Gimme this word.

Simone Collins: Well, it, it's, it's, it's part of the single Mary mom discourse of, of, of men just being like, oh, I, I didn't know how to fold the clothes. You know, like, just like, if I were to use this against you, I'd, you know, it'd be like, well the, the fact that you don't put away dishes that I, the way that I like, or the fact that you don't clean up the way I like isn't that you don't know how to, it's that you are actively choosing to not know how to, to weaponize my, to subjugate me.

To make me do it. Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: That makes sense. Okay. Okay. That actually

Simone Collins: shows up in the next, so my, my, my final section of, of this, this, this weaponization is, is framing normal behavior as toxic and weaponized incompetence is actually a great example of this. And I'm gonna go back [00:34:00] to our liberating motherhood you know, seventh Health and Wellness Substack blog for some examples of this because Zon Vine, the author is just so good at eloquently distilling these radicalized hateful toward men feminist points.

Okay? So, one, one example that she presents is she, she takes. Men's observation that women sometimes overreact and frames it as toxic. In one of her substack posts titled You are Overreacting, the Magic Words Patriarchy uses to justify everything.

Malcolm Collins: But women, you overreact. Are we supposed to pretend that they don't?

Simone Collins: Well, and that's the thing is, is here's an example. Like I, I would be, I would be materially and mentally worse off if I didn't have you walk me back from things. And I know that ire like there, there was just a instance the other day where I was, I was like literally up all night and like having actual bad dreams about a bit of a, like a family conflict that's [00:35:00] that's going on.

And I told you like what I was gonna plan on do about it because I was like really stressing out about it. And you're like, Simone. Just pay this person off. And like, just, just, just deal with it. It's not worth it for you to try to fight back against this. And like you, you showed me that I was overreacting.

You're like, just deal with it in this way. You gave me a very simple solution and guess what? I'm not having bad dreams about it anymore. I'm not losing sleepover it anymore because I was overreacting. So not only is it yet do women, even me with my like, well maybe it's 'cause I'm pregnant. Maybe I have more of a female hormonal profile now.

But like even me, who like normally needs to take the same amount of estrogen as a trans woman to, to be feminine like. I overreact, and I'm not the most feminine person. So like, I don't

Malcolm Collins: think that this is overreaction. I just think that you overly queued to like emotional issues and wanting to solve them.

And I'm just like, we don't need to solve this. Stop thinking about it. Well, that's

Simone Collins: one example of [00:36:00] this. But as, as Z Vine put it, quote, one of the best ways to assess whether a man wants to harm you. Is how he reacts when you critique his behavior. If he apologizes and makes amends, then his harmful behavior was unintentional.

If he tells you obedient, yeah, if he tells you you're overreacting, it's because he knows his behavior is indefensible. He's seeking to escape accountability by gaslighting you. There is no epidemic of women overreacting. What we do have is an epidemic of women underreacting continuing to pursue heterosexual relationships with men, making excuses for the men in their lives, assuming they can disrupt abuse when the right communications or with the right communications stream.

Where is this from? Which article is this from? This is from liberating Motherhood titled You're Overreacting, the Magic Words Patriarchy Uses to justify everything She ends that with. You don't need to worry about overreacting, which is just so not true. I think especially for women, because I do think that [00:37:00] women, and I think I'm part of this overreact.

Malcolm Collins: How can you be so blind to your own nature, to not know that women overreact more than men? Like, I'm actually kind of shocked by this, the, the degree to which the No, she actually

Simone Collins: in the same article argues that men overreact more than women and more violently and are a violent threat to women. And

Malcolm Collins: not only that, I remember another one of her things was she was talking about like signs that your husband is awful.

And she's like, he goes, well, are you on your period? In which post? That's like all of them. No, no, no. But the one about like, are you, are you on your period? Right? Like, are you, you know, just trying to understand that they need to be acting with special care around you. And then of course, this is a sign of abuse.

And it's like, yeah, but, you know, women do act differently during that time. The problem is, yeah,

Simone Collins: there's, there's abundant academic research that shows shifts in female behavior based on their cycle. Like

Malcolm Collins: that isn't, isn't, that isn't him attacking you. That is him asking an, an, an informative question that should inform how both of you react to the moment.

Right? Like,

Simone Collins: well, and even if, even if. [00:38:00] Women's cycles weren't, like, didn't lead to hormonal behavioral changes, which are well documented. Literally, the presence of menstrual cramps that many women experience would be enough to cause them to react in a certain way. Like if any person on a monthly basis endured Yeah, a, a, a non-trivial amount of discomfort enough, that was like interrupting to them, they would start, like, when, when you're in pain, you react kind of in a worse way.

You know? 'cause you just have less, you, you fewer spoons to spend, you know, like it's not, you don't have the patience for it 'cause you're in pain. So like, it's, it's not unreasonable to say that women,

Malcolm Collins: no, but what I find fascinating about this blog is it almost feels like it was designed by somebody who sat down and was like, how can I convince?

And this is one of the, the biggest blogs on Substack, right? How can I convince women to hate their husbands?

Simone Collins: Well, I, I think what she found and, and that you see this a lot with the. Fresh and [00:39:00] fit, just pearly things like that kind of sphere online is there's this, this group of people that just like really done, done with women.

And I think a lot of the people who read her blog, when you look at the comments actually have been or are in pretty suboptimal relationships. They've made bad decisions with, with the men they've chosen or whatever, and they come in and they. They really don't like their husbands. And I think she found the market.

Malcolm Collins: I don't, I, I disagree. I think a lot of these people actually start liking their husbands. I think you're, well, no, I mean,

Simone Collins: you don't marry someone 'cause you hate them. Of

Malcolm Collins: course, they all started out

Simone Collins: liking

Malcolm Collins: their husbands. Right. But I think that the goal of a lot of this is to drive people into hating their husbands when they didn't to begin with.

And I think that so many husbands who are good husbands and so many wives who are good wives, don't realize how much a perfectly good and normal relationship can be destroyed by consuming content like this. And a lot of husbands think, well, my life is, is, is like a rational human. And you don't understand [00:40:00] that even somebody like Simone can find lines within this sort of stuff.

Seductive, you know, you can read this and be like, oh. Well, you know, should Malcolm be packing for trips? No. And if you actually thought through it, you'd be like, oh my God, I would beat him with a stick. Yes. And he tried to pack for a trip, but it gets into your head and you're like, well, I guess you're right.

I do. And oh, I guess I am doing a lot around the house. Like, when was the last time he did cards? And I'm sure if you look at her post around like, Malcolm, I don't think

Simone Collins: you've ever, like, aside from some kindergarten teacher signing you, like I, I don't think you've ever written a something. No, I wouldn't In your life.

No,

Malcolm Collins: I'm a f*****g hetero. Sorry. I'm a head of sexual man. And there are few things in this world. Like women do not want men who write cards. They do not, they do not want to. They may conceptually want those men that is not the characters they choose to romance [00:41:00] in games where they can romance multiple characters.

It is not the, the, the card for gift writers. And so I think a lot of this is just like a delusion, you know what I mean? But sick delusion 'cause it destroys marriages, it destroys families. And it's something that to get at, I think is worth going through. And I love how you broke this into distinct categories, going through these categories and talking through them with your partners so that they know to be on the lookout for context content that tries to do.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, a similar thing exists with. Cults in general, right? Like when, you know that love bombing is a cult tactic and you can identify it and say, this is love bombing. This is separating you from your loved ones and trust network. This is, you know, like all of that. It makes it a lot easier to deprogram someone.

But I wanted to go through a couple more examples. Okay. Okay. Before we get to the deprogramming section, which we [00:42:00] absolutely are gonna con include, so that, that's obviously super important. But there, there I just like the. There's so many things that are reframed as toxic that I think are insane. Go.

So, 'cause this here. Here's one. So when I talk with reporters about why women end up doing more parenting than they should, I talk about men and women having different standards and how like a lot of women just aren't comfortable having their husband like, watch the kids for the afternoon or whatever because they know that if their husband watches the kids, they're gonna eat a lot of candy and be running around naked and there's gonna be a, a bit of a mess, right?

And, and like, I'm cool with that. Why do you need to put clothes on the kids every day? Right? Like, it, that doesn't

Malcolm Collins: make sense to me

Simone Collins: Get, but this, this is reframed by Zvi lines as toxic. In her blog post, we just have different standards, the weapons sexist menus. And, and she, in this, she writes. We just have different standards.

Do you or is that he doesn't have the, or sorry, do you or is it that he doesn't have to have standards because you [00:43:00] do all the work? I,

Malcolm Collins: hold on just a quick note before you continue here. They're literally like looking at the arguments where people are like, you're being a psycho right now, Uhhuh. You're trying to get women to hate their husbands Uhhuh.

And they're like, yeah, we are trying to get them to hate our husbands. Let's go get outta

Simone Collins: my way.

Malcolm Collins: Get outta my way.

Simone Collins: She writes, one of the big changes our generation has seen is that it's no longer socially acceptable to say, I actually think my wife should do all the parenting and housework because she's a woman and that's her role.

And you definitely can't say, I deserve to relax at the end of my day and my wife doesn't, because women's needs just don't matter as much, and women's work doesn't count, even when it's paid work in many ways, it's easier to confront the sexist men when they say. Poop like this instead, like the cowering slobs, they are, they hide their sexism in the language of foe equality, quote.

It's not that I think you should do all the work, we just have different standards. So that's like the theme of her post is that like, she's taking this thing where I'm like. Yeah. Men and women do have different, like you and I have very different [00:44:00] standards and you know, I do certain things 'cause I'd rather have them be done my way.

And she's framing that, but I,

Malcolm Collins: I just point out here that the different standards, and this is what she's missing here.

Mm-hmm.

The female standard that is often demanded of the husband mm-hmm. Is not demanded because it is practical. There is no reason I actually need to fold all of the kids' clothes that go.

Yeah. Malcolm's

Simone Collins: like, are they gonna get sick? That's fine. No, when

Malcolm Collins: I look at the house and cleaning, I'm like, are is somebody gonna get sick? Why are we, we, we don't have guests coming over? Why are you doing this?

Mm-hmm.

You know? Yeah. That is a personal preference, choice on behalf of the woman. That is not a no, no, no, no.

It, it, it's true. It's a big thing if, when a, when a man says we have different standards and it's 'cause he's just not actually doing the job to the degree that the job Yeah. And like the kids are necessary. Yeah. Hurting

Simone Collins: for something.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Right. When he says we have different standards, and what he means is you demand a standard of this that has no actual [00:45:00] utility to our lives.

Mm-hmm. That is you, that is like. The husband did. I'll explain the male version of this demanding sex constantly from the wife and the wife being like, well, you know, I just don't, you don't need

Simone Collins: that to survive. You could just, you don't

Malcolm Collins: need that much sex or that kinky of sex in those ways. Yeah.

And the husband's like, well, that's just what I expect. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah. What wife is doing when she tries to get the, the husband to clean the house every single day in a way that is not of any utility to the family's health. That's a great,

Simone Collins: that's a really good, yeah, I think that's a great equivalent because she also talks a lot about sex in this blog.

I'm not getting into it.

Malcolm Collins: I'm sure its super toxic. Is it just like you should never have to have sex whenever and a guy exudes sex?

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Like one, one of her, one of her statements among, and there's so many, is that that scheduled sex is rape. That, that what if I were like, Hey, Malcolm, like it's really like with all the kids and stuff, we should just schedule time so that we actually make time for intimacy, because otherwise we're just not gonna get around to it.

That would be.

Malcolm Collins: Great for her.

Simone Collins: [00:46:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: She goes even so far what an actual psycho this person is. I know, but this

Simone Collins: have a popular blog. This is why our good friend recommended this substack to us. Thank you. I, again, I would name you, but I don't, I don't know if you know her or something, so I don't wanna put you on the spot.

So she even goes to frame the very institution of marriage in which she participates for 12 plus years as toxic in the, the Liberating Motherhood blog post Is Marriage Good for Women? This is actually like a redux of an earlier viral post that she did on marriage. I'm just gonna read a very short bit from it.

But she says, imagine if we told girls the truth. Imagine if we admitted to them that there is a single choice in life that will, on average shorten women's life expectancy, undermine their ability to parent their children effectively, greatly increase the risk of their children being exposed to violence and in all other forms of abuse.

Lower women's earning power erode their mental health, make them less happy over the long term. Weaken women's relationship with [00:47:00] family and friends, erode women's libido. Reduce the quality of a woman's sex life, immediately increase household labor, increase risk of and exposure to abuse and violence, elevate risk of depression, anxiety, and trauma.

And that choice is cisgender heterosexual marriage. Oh my God. And this is why I should have married a chick, Malcolm. You're ruining me

Malcolm Collins: by the way, just just so people know we've done another episode on one of our spiciest episodes is, is who, who's really at fault for abuse in marriages? Because what we look at is if you look at the abuse rates in cisgendered marriages and then and it's the same with divorce rates as well, by the way.

Divorce rates in cisgender marriages. And then you look at, okay, well what happens if we take out one of the genders? And you go to gay marriages, you have way lower divorce rates than in cisgender marriages. Mm-hmm. You have lower abuse rates. You go to lesbian marriages, you have a way higher divorce rates and [00:48:00] way higher abuse rates.

It's so screwed up. I don't get it.

Simone Collins: I don't get it. 'cause also like all the lesbian couples we see are so sweet and like that we know are also are great. Like I actually, okay, so I grew up around one that was actually. Very rocky, and they did get divorced and the fights were scary and loud.

Malcolm Collins: Apparently 76% of lesbians get divorced and 23% of gay men get divorced.

Sorry, I misstated the data here a bit. What I meant to say was, of gay people who get divorced in any given year, around 76% will be lesbians and 23% will be gay men. So gay, gay men, we need to do an episode of like how wholesome gay men are and their a relationship. We come on.

Simone Collins: No, the wholesome lesbians we saw at Trader Joe's yesterday. They were so sweet. They were sweet. I wanted to take them home. Yeah. Like they just like, I'm just, I'm not saying they're all bad.

No, I'm just saying

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no. The lesbians are not abusive because they're lesbians. They do not get divorced at higher rates because they're lesbians. This happens because they're women and you've just doubled the number of women in a relationship. Oh my God. And, and [00:49:00] so, but if, if

Simone Collins: they were just sister wives,

Malcolm Collins: it would be fine, right?

Because they'd have a man. No. Actually, what's really funny is if you go to countries, a lot of people surprised at this. If you look at countries where you have I think it was like the statistic I saw on like spousal beatings. And if you look at countries where like physical abuse of wives where there are campaigns to allow it,

Simone Collins: okay.

Oh, the women support it. There was some African, a lot of women

Malcolm Collins: campaigns are

Simone Collins: led by

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Where the women are like, someone needs

Simone Collins: to crack down

Malcolm Collins: here, but, but hold on, hold on. There. Within countries where men can wear multiple wives. Oh so that makes sense. Well also, you know, in our, in our polyamory our kids, when one of our kids goes to me and he goes, duh, people say our kids, 'cause they know that we do like light corporal punishment, they, that they fear corporal punishment.

Our kids are the biggest advocates for corporal punishment. You could imagine in our family, and one of our kids will come and he goes, Octavian just took X from me. You need to go bop octavian. And I'm like, well, I really don't think what he did was that bad. He goes, [00:50:00] no, like, you need to bop him. And this is the way apparently, like wives are when there's other wives in the picture.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Although also, and someone commented on our polyamory podcast that they had some, like a, a friend who, who married a woman from like the Philippines or something. And that woman was like, you need to get another wife. Like, I want someone to help out with the housework and who I can gossip with about sex and stuff.

Like, she's like, I don't know. I, I, I wonder, I wonder how like realistic the female demand for poly for polygamy is that would be fun to look at somewhere. Well, again, I don't

Malcolm Collins: think that's the same as polyamory if you wanna marry, but before we

Simone Collins: go through the deradicalization, which is important and we need to get to that I wanna point out that you can't even like s Stockholm syndrome yourself as a man into this.

Like, even if you want to be the perfect. Feminist man, you'll

Malcolm Collins: never win.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And in fact, in liberating motherhood, there is a post titled, but I'm an ally and a feminist, how Men Weaponize Feminist Identities Against Women, the Weapons Abusive Men use Series. [00:51:00] So this, this is, this is an article that she just in which she goes over how like, oh, if a man says he's a feminist, he might just be

Malcolm Collins: No, Mike is really, it's a sign of abuse.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Basically she says that, like,

Malcolm Collins: not that it's not, I do agree that men who say they're feminists are much more likely to be abusive. But I think Yeah. Well,

Simone Collins: and, and we, we see a lot of, yeah. Like there's sort of this, the sneaky calculators thing kind of happens in those, in those spaces. I mean,

Malcolm Collins: that's why you have such high grape levels within these communities, which we've talked about before.

Because if, if you look at the reports of grape levels within like feminist communities, they're like stupidly high like higher than they are in like, like war zones in like, Africa and stuff like that. If you look at like American colleges and it's like, okay, so there's clearly something wrong with the men that you're interacting with or you're lying.

Mm. We could say they're lying, but I actually don't know if that's a hundred percent. And I actually think that they are in environments where the men who adopt, quote [00:52:00] unquote a feminist persona are much more likely to be to disregard women's sexual boundaries.

Simone Collins: But I don't even think, like, she's not even talking about that.

I mean, she is, she, I think she mentions it a little bit, but what she talks about even more is like, basically. If you're a man, you're part of the patriarchy, and the only way you're an actual feminist ally is if basically all you do is listen. And if the woman always wins the argument, and if that's how it is, then yes, you're a feminist.

But if you ever dare to push back or invalidate a woman's, if you're not in a

Malcolm Collins: 24 7 dom sub relationship, yes. Is your wife. If this

Simone Collins: isn't like reverse gorian nonsense, she means like basically you're a

Malcolm Collins: live-in slave to this woman. You are not feminist enough for her.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So like the point is, nobody's safe, Malcolm, literally like the perfect husband.

My like dream. I, 'cause keep it, I I wanted to live alone forever. I hate all people like my. My default wa was so anti being with anyone. Like, you have to understand just how above and [00:53:00] beyond amazing Malcolm actually is as a husband, because

Malcolm Collins: Well, and I think it's really important for people to know that like, I barely beat my wife.

I It is, it is like barely once every few days do I have to give her a spanking because she is not listening to my demand. I, I am a feminist. I force her to make the money for the family as a feminist because it's

Simone Collins: empowering girl boss, et cetera. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: That's how you know I'm a true feminist.

Simone Collins: Yeah. An ally.

An al, an

Malcolm Collins: ally. An ally.

Simone Collins: So, but like, okay, so I mean, just, just to show like whether you're dating women, whether you're married, the, you need to just know this is something to which the women in your life or it's, they're being exposed to this. This is, this is something serious that you need to anticipate and be aware [00:54:00] of.

And okay, let's say that someone's already already steeped in this. You're hearing terms like weaponized incompetence. You're hearing terms like cognitive load, you're hearing terms, like, the mere fact that I have to ask you is such a mental burden. Like you're not helping, like you should know, you should anticipate, there's so many viral social media examples of this.

You need to be aware that that's already a sign that this woman has been radicalized and that she has internalized those narratives. And I have even been guilty at times of doing this to Malcolm of like, oh, just asking you would be too much work. Like I've said things like that to him. So like. Even perfectly happy married couples can slip into this.

So what do you do to deradicalize someone and or inoculate them against it? It's, it's

Malcolm Collins: very easy. What you need to do is inject them with serum so that their brain becomes malleable and then send them to brain, brain, brain back. Lobotomies. Lobotomy.

Simone Collins: No, I think the, the biggest thing is open discourse.

Like a lot of the issues that I read about [00:55:00] in z villain's, liberating, motherhood, substack could be so easily resolved just by each party talking about what they wanted, what's bothering them and what they can do to work it out. I think like having a relationship contract would be so useful. Like, this is one of the things that was just so great that we did early in our relationship where we're like, we're gonna throw out social contracts.

'cause the problem with social contracts is, especially in a culture like ours where everyone kind of has different. Priors they're growing up with.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: We need to have a shared standard for everything. 'cause otherwise, I'm gonna think cheating is defined by this, and you're gonna think cheating is defined by that and these are totally not matched.

And suddenly I think like, oh, you're, you're watching porn, you're cheating on me. And you're like, wait a second, it's porn. What do you mean? Like it's when I have, have penetrative sex with a woman that I'm cheating. So like all these things, like you have to work out those standards. So I think having a relationship contract, and by that I mean like an active Google document where you go over potential points of con conflict, which ours include everything from permitted interior house temperatures to what happens if a [00:56:00] parent becomes sick and asks to move in.

And it's better to talk about these things before they're real. 'cause then they're too emotionally charged for you to actually talk about them in a reasonable way. Like I think that's a really big one, is to just, 'cause then like a woman can't accuse you of not knowing the standards of, of, of like, oh, you should have known.

Right. You should have known that this was your expectation. Because what's happening, I think with this radicalization is that. Feminists who hate men are literally shifting the default social contract. Yeah. Because the default social contract before used to be a lot more compatible. It's like men knew that women would do this weird thing where they had to have personalized stationary and write thank you notes.

And women knew that men would never do something like that. 'cause it's not something that men do. They Yeah. But now, now this social contract has been shifted of how dare men not, you know, buy personalized stationary and send thank you notes. And because, well,

Malcolm Collins: I actually remember you know, growing [00:57:00] up I knew somebody who did this, who wrote these stationary notes.

Yeah. Everyone was like, oh, they're gay. Like, they, they, were they gay by the way? They were. It's a family member. It's a family member. They weren't, they

Simone Collins: weren't gay.

Malcolm Collins: No, they're not gay. They're, they're married. They've got kids now. They're, they're not gay. And as far as I know, they've never done anything gay.

But they would, they would not just write like, thank you letters, everything like that, but they tie bows on them and stuff and, and make them look really nice.

Simone Collins: Oh my God, I love it.

Malcolm Collins: You, you can guess which of my family members this was. I haven't. And, and why I would be so hesitant to name them. But this is, this is very much like a, I'm not saying that like, obviously like it makes, but what I'm saying is it is rare for men to want to do things like this.

But again, these are

Simone Collins: all averages like that, that household chores thing, you know, these are averages of like, on average men are gonna be more into the outdoor housework and fixing stuff, and women are gonna be more interested in decorating for the holidays. But there are always exceptions. There are those dudes who are like the Christmas guy and like, they're obsessed, you know?

Malcolm Collins: It's fine. Right. And, and that's like to, well you, [00:58:00] the often when it's the Christmas guy, they're obsessed with like outdoor decorating and Yeah. They're like, the train sets it and, you know.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, and also like, you know, where we deviated in that survey was that on average, men were more likely to do the financial management, which was even depicted in that parents.com photo in the article of the man paying the bills while the women

Malcolm Collins: labors through breakfast by buttering toast.

It looked like he was doing work, not paying the bills, but No, no,

Simone Collins: no. He was, he was holding a piece of paper and in front of it, like literally like an accounting software screen. So

Malcolm Collins: he was like,

Simone Collins: you just don't know what paying bills looks like. 'cause I enjoy that more than you do. But I also don't really like autistic.

Malcolm Collins: You, you also like, you also, I don't like, you know, my paper hands and stuff like that, you know, even though, even though we don't have Crip Bitcoin anymore, we still have a lot of crypto. But you are always like, I don't like that. You're always stressing about this. Just buy and hold until we make a bunch of money.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: have, I have,

Simone Collins: What, what is it called? Diamond hands.

Malcolm Collins: Diamond Hands. And then, and then we got to a point where we're just like, okay, the risk of quantum is [00:59:00] becoming too high at this point.

Yeah.

And so let's just get up the, you, you see, I mean, we had a lot of money in that. We had, like, we

Simone Collins: bought the, the, the Ford that we used was our Ethereum gains alone.

Yeah. We were gonna

Malcolm Collins: get us a license plate, like gas fees. But then what we, the house we got was, was from games. Largely speaking from an inheritance. If you Oh, the

Simone Collins: Bitcoin. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Which

Simone Collins: you got so mad at me when I put that all on Bitcoin.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, do you remember how mad you were?

Hold on. This requires a bit of context. Ho. The reason I was so eager to sell a lot of our Bitcoin is I got an inheritance from, and it's the only inheritance I'm gonna get from any of my family members because we, my family had all their money stolen from them. It's a long story, $27 million stolen by this weird, like, accountant lady.

You, you could look it up like it's in the news. But I got a, you know, medium inheritance from my grandmother and Simone takes it [01:00:00] and puts it all in Bitcoin, and then Bitcoin burns down a bunch. And I'm really stressed. I'm like, this isn't what it was for Simone. It wasn't for like gambling. Yes, it was not gambling.

You go, Bitcoin's gonna do well, trust me. And it ends up more than doubling from the position where she bought it at and then we sold out. And

Simone Collins: but also, yeah, I mean like to honor you and then you, then you got mad about that too because then it went up from, we, we, we sold it like 71 and then it of course like went up to like a hundred.

But like, then you got mad like, no, it's, it's okay to sell before you the peak gains because,

Malcolm Collins: and this is why you manage the finance. 'cause you're not as susceptible to emotions as I am.

Simone Collins: But anyway, so like there are deviations. You're absolutely right. But like, yeah, I think, you know the what, when you negotiate these things in a marriage contract, when you, you now have to, social contracts have not only.

Gone all over the place, but been systematically moved in a way that is designed to set up men for failure in relationships. Well, and women too, but like to, to demonize men in relationships. Therefore, as a man, if you do not [01:01:00] extremely intentionally set up a relationship contract, you are setting yourself up to fail, like period in, in today's society.

And I know it's annoying that you have to do that, but also like we had there was a guy from a film crew over this past weekend and I was telling him about our relationship contract 'cause that's like a good spicy thing to include in new segments. And he was like, oh yeah, dude, like I had one with my ex-girlfriend.

Like, this is not a weirdo thing. Like, we're weirdos. I get that. Okay. All the glasses. But like this guy was a super based, normal Pennsylvania guy who's lived in the state all his life. And he had a relationship contract. With his girlfriend before they no think

Malcolm Collins: normal Americans who like aren't affected by the urban monoculture, they hear this and it,

Simone Collins: it was cute.

Like he, I mean like they framed it like it was little, it's a little tongue and it can be tongue in cheek. And it was a little like, they had a cheese C clause. There always had to be cheese in the fridge. There was a, there was a wine C clause where he always had to like give her a glass of wine on Fridays.

That's cute. I like that. That's romantic, [01:02:00] right? Like, this can be fun and I, I encourage people to make it fun, but I also like the fact that this is happening means you also kind of have to do this because it's a big deal. Mm-hmm. Is there anything else you'd add in terms of deradicalizing women? Like what do you do?

What do you do when a woman, like,

Malcolm Collins: I don't think you can deradicalize. I think you can only prevent,

Simone Collins: so yeah. What? Yeah. What about these, these men whose women are like, I'm not gonna have more kids unless you.

Malcolm Collins: I, I'm, I mean, I'm gonna be honest, I think you made the wrong choice in who you married. There's not a lot you can do at that point.

Like yeah, you've gotta, you gotta walk through way eggshells after that, right? Like,

Simone Collins: yeah, no, and there's that other friend who shall go nameless, right? But like, we, we've seen them a couple of times. I don't live in the state, but like, yeah, I know the, the wife had like, keeps saying these things that are like, he's m things, she's, she's gone more and more progressive.

Like, she's really gotten into the cult and like, what, what is he supposed to do? Like, we keep looking at him like, blink twice if you're okay. Like, 'cause he has to, he and he has to say yes. And like, he'll say whatever his opinion [01:03:00] is. And it typically Yes, master. Yes, master of course. Well, yeah. And then she'll be like, what do you mean that?

Like, that's terrible. And then he'll be like, oh no, you're right. I didn't mean that. Like, he has to walk himself back all the time. Like, is there really nothing he can do?

Malcolm Collins: But he, no, but you have a kid together. What you can do, what you can do. If you're like, how do you, she did this stuff before they got married.

Just

Simone Collins: know the warning signs.

Malcolm Collins: Know the warning signs. I guess we have

Simone Collins: to take a, we have to take a leaf out of Sean Vine's book.

Malcolm Collins: We have to, and not, not just know the warning signs, but deconvert her before the marriage. You could deconvert you did this stuff to me, you do the freak out, and then I'd talk it through with you.

I'd be like, okay, let's think through this logically, right? Yeah. Like,

Simone Collins: what, what are you actually producing with this behavior? What are you actually encouraging? What are you, what are the outcomes

Malcolm Collins: exactly.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And like, what do, what do you want to have happen and do you think this is going to get that?

No. Yeah. Okay. Alright. So yeah, look for the warning flags. Take them extremely seriously, I think. Yeah, probably the problem with a, a lot of the people who have found themselves painted into these holes, you know, either in long-term [01:04:00] relationships with or married to women who have become radicalized past the point of no return.

They. They probably received tons of warning signs and never intervened and never said, you know what? I don't. Yeah. It's

Malcolm Collins: not about the warning signs. It's about not intervening when you see the warning signs. Mm-hmm. Not talking it through as not being like, Hey, you don't, like, let's actually, you think all Trump voters are evil?

Like, let's, let's talk through this. Right? Like, you think all XRY, like, can we talk about why you believe this?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Okay. And of course, in the comments, weigh in if you have additional advice on this, or additional ways that women are radicalizing other women against husbands and boyfriends and men in general.

'Cause I, I think I, I think I've been pretty exhaustive here. But,

Malcolm Collins: well, no, I mean, I, the number of men who have easier relationships because their wives watch this podcast.

Simone Collins: No, I mean, so many of the wives who watch this podcast are already so based and they're in such good relationships. True. And it makes me so happy [01:05:00] that they're out there.

'cause they comment sometimes and they talk about it, and I'm like, oh man. Like, this is good. You know, they're, they're out there. Like, you're more obedient. You

Malcolm Collins: are Simone, by the way. I have, I have heard that they send you emails saying you need to be having more fornication with your husband. Well, you

Simone Collins: just make it sound so appealing.

Malcolm Collins: And I'm like, what?

Simone Collins: You are the one who bolts your door at night?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, the other night I fell asleep and apparently she came and banged on the door.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Because Malcolm's like, open invite and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna act on this. And he's like, all right. And then I'm, I'm like, Hmm. And then I call him, doesn't pick up.

And I, I like, knock on his door, doesn't, I'm a deep sleeper and I try to open the door. I'm like, I'll just wake him up. No, it's bolted. Because you just don't wanna get any, do you? No.

Malcolm Collins: It's because we have a kid living between our two rooms who comes up and sneaks into my room at night. He really

Simone Collins: does. And oh my God, how terrible would it be if I like jumped you in the middle of the night and like our kid [01:06:00] was like secretly like hiding under the bed.

We'd never wanna traumatize him. He loved

Malcolm Collins: hiding in my room too.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And all he wants to do is just like, be as close to you as possible. It's so sweet. But okay. Well I love you. I don't resent you. I love that.

Malcolm Collins: No, you're amazing. You're amazing. Thank you for not being brainwashed by I exposed you to the void now we'll see if you can survive.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: excited Simone episodes.

Malcolm Collins: I'm, I'm watching a strange Aons where she's trying to make a Tumblr like too much vanilla and extract cake. Her, her stuff is great. It's so funny about the tooth guy. What

Simone Collins: painless Dan or something.

Malcolm Collins: What about tooth guy? She did an episode on him.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I just watched a long strange Aon episode too.

But it was about a man who extracted teeth in Canada. So this not the one you were watching?

Malcolm Collins: No, no, not me. I, I love my subcultures. I was sent one by fans about a game that's like a goner [01:07:00] game for girls. Where you date.

Characters in space or something. It was good. I, I, I liked learning about it. I like learning about weird subculture. Oh. I feel like

Simone Collins: either she or some other YouTuber was promoting it. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I watched like a YouTuber video on it and,

Simone Collins: but it was like an ad, right? It was sponsor. Sponsor, yeah. It promoted

Malcolm Collins: a lot on YouTube content.

And

Simone Collins: like one of them, there's like, and this time he's a space mermaid. Like literally

Malcolm Collins: like a Space Mermaid Is Space Mermaid. That is, that is, that could have been what I was watching. Yeah. But where are

Simone Collins: their ies if they're freaking,

Malcolm Collins: that's not important. That's not important to

Simone Collins: apparently it's not though.

Women of

Malcolm Collins: this genre. Yeah. And, and I, and I read this New York Times article about ZZZ then and the Zian Cult that came outta the rationalist and then murdered a bunch of people. And I'm like, why aren't they writing about me? And Simone's like, they write about you all the time. Malcolm. Can you, can you not have anyone?

But one of the, the lines that somebody said about Zzz, which I thought, you know, is, is accurate, is they came into the rationalist in EA [01:08:00] community wanting to be one of the main characters. And when they realized they couldn't be they basically just like picked up their cake and went home, picked up the ball, and went home.

And, and that is what created their little cult. Because they're just, no, I'm, I'm gonna be one of the main characters, even if other people don't care what I have to say and think I'm an idiot. And that is, that is where the Zans came from. The other thing that I thought was funny is they had this belief like you wanna hear annoying.

So they would go and they would interact with other people on the forums. But there, oh, like in

Simone Collins: the EA forums,

Malcolm Collins: like in the EA discords and stuff like that. But they were distinct and easily recognizable because they would only use symbols for their names and not like English letters. And because they're all trans, like when you tried to call them out on this, they'd be like, well, as a trans person, like I am.

You, you know, you, you, you can't register what I am. That's part of who I am. And so it's transphobic to demand that I use real characters.

Simone Collins: That's taking it to a next level.

Malcolm Collins: And they also believed that trans women had a unique neurotype that allowed them to better do AI safety work [01:09:00] and that no one, oh my God.

Like we,

Simone Collins: we are the super race for AI safety work. Yeah. Just like, what's that Star Wars race that clones people and like the trans women? They're, they're, that

Malcolm Collins: the, the, they are the Kim Owens is who you're thinking of. They're like Caminos.

Simone Collins: Oh yeah. Camino, yes. Okay. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: No, with the trans. I, I thought that that was interesting because it is true.

So many of the AI safety scree creatures I know of are trans women. There, there is some sort of overlap between AI safety screeching and being a trans woman.

Simone Collins: No, there's some overlap between being. Someone of the female gender in the Bay area and being trans.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, that's true. Well, and I, and I think, you know, if you're influenceable, you know, to one social meme, you're gonna be in influenced by another social meme.

Simone Collins: Exactly.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like

Simone Collins: if you're, if you're in any sort of like rationalist or ea space in the San Francisco Bay area, a lot of the women there are gonna be trans. And [01:10:00] a lot of the people there also are gonna be working in AI safety. Like, I don't, I don't like, I don't see that as,

you know, it's too confounded.

Anyway, I finally set the security code so I can can get to the fun stuff now. Well,

Malcolm Collins: what, what, what I'll do the opening. I mean, you could say if you saw anything interesting in the comments from the last video that, that you were working on today.

Simone Collins: No, I mean, no, just support. People are ready for trans to be over.

Some people think that the left is lying about it and that secretly they're super in support of youth, gender medicine still. And they're just saying this other people are like, yeah, reality always shows up to the party. Sometimes she's drunk and she's not always nice. She shows up.

And I like that.

That was a good comment. So sometimes we get good comments. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Alright.

Simone Collins: All right. Ready?

Octavian Collins: Why are you sneaking? Um, because I like sneaking [01:11:00] because bedtime, not because I like sneaking. This is the only time of day when you ever giggle like this, and it's always when you're supposed to be in bed.

Why is that my friend?

Malcolm Collins: Because I wanna be funny because you wanna be funny. Are you funny? Yes. Yeah. What are you doing? That's so funny. I'm sneaking into your room. Sneaking in my room? Yeah. Well, I brush my teeth. Yeah. Is that funny? Yes. You also want to tell me a joke. I. Chicken Jackie. Is this some new youth slang that I don't know about?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Tell me another joke. Mm, chicken arrow. [01:12:00] Chicken hero. No. Chicken arrow. Chicken arrow. Yeah. Like the arrow's right up there? Yeah. Those are my arrows. Yeah, they're hanging. They go with the bow that's up there, right? Yeah. Where's the string for the bow? Actually, the string's on the bow is just not strong.

Octavian Collins: Uch.

Malcolm Collins: Goodbye

Octavian Collins: Iny. Is there any advice you have for her to get good dreams

Malcolm Collins: Ised? By having

them

Octavian Collins: seriously. He got a happiness

Malcolm Collins: demon.

Octavian Collins: Happiness demon.

Malcolm Collins: People are like, oh, do your kids. How dare you bring someone into this world. They may not wanna live in it. And I'm like, okay. But like my kid not typically worried about that. I take, get up, tell Indy advice.

Octavian Collins: Tell Indy how to, how to sleep well.

What does she need to do? What

Malcolm Collins: does she need to do to sleep [01:13:00] well? No. What

does Indy,

Octavian Collins: what does Indy need to do to sleep well?

Malcolm Collins: To little demon? Stop it. What does Indy need to do to sleep well?

Octavian Collins: Possessed. He's possessed. Andy, what's your brother doing?

Malcolm Collins: Andy, can you, you talk some sense into your brother? Um, have good dreams, Andy?

Tell her how to have good dreams.

Have good dreams, and

never go to bed.

Octavian Collins: Oh my god.