David and Helen talk with historian Sarah Churchwell about the origins, uses and abuses of the idea of American fascism. Where does American fascism come from? Does it follow a European model or is it something exceptional? What role do white supremacy and anti-Semitism play in its development? How close has it got to power? Plus we ask the big question for now: Does it make sense to call Trump a fascist?

Talking Points: 

Trump’s decision to hold a rally in Tulsa on 19 June is an act of clear provocation to African Americans, especially at this moment. 

• 19 June 1865 was the day the last slaves were emancipated, two years after the Emancipation Proclamation.
• The symbolic deferral, the fact that white people were actively denying black people full rights and citizenship, is what Juneteenth came to represent. 
• Tulsa is where the worst race riot in American history occurred in 1921. The white population of Tulsa descended on a thriving black community.
• The Trump campaign was forced to move the rally a day. It will happen on 20 June.

Is fascism the right word for what has happened—and is happening in America? 

• The second Klan rose between 1915 and 1922.
• The commentariat at the time pointed to Mussolini and fascism to explain the Klan’s resurgence.
• Hitler looked at the US and took aspects, including the legal institutionalisation of white supremacy, especially in the South, as an inspiration. 
• But there is something quite specific about European fascism in the 1920s that has to do with the fallout of the First World War.

Fascism is ultra-nationalism. It has to be different in every country: it’s highly situational, highly historicized. 

• It can be hard to pin down because each iteration takes its own form.
• Is it historically accurate to call the present moment fascist? Is it useful?
• Is calling Trump a fascist too comforting? Does it keep us from seeing the reasons why he won?
• Is it useful to think about American nativist, conspiratorial, racist, xenophobic, anti-semitic gorups as being recognizably fascist going back in time? 

Mentioned in this Episode: 

• Sarah and TP American Histories on the 15th and the 19th amendment
• Robert Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism
• Philip Roth, The Plot Against America
• Sinclair Lewis, It Can’t Happen Here
• Jonathan Shanin on Tom Cotton’s op ed

Further Learning: 

• Sarah on TP: America First? 
• Sarah on the dark history of America First
• Sarah’s book, Behold America