Honestly with Bari Weiss cover image

Does Elon Musk Have Too Much Power?

Honestly with Bari Weiss

CHAPTER

The Power and Complexity of Elon Musk

This chapter examines the extensive influence of Elon Musk in sectors like electric vehicles and space exploration, highlighting his innovative spirit and risk-taking approach. It explores the challenges in writing his biography, reflecting on public perceptions shaped by his controversial actions, especially on social media. The discussion also touches on Musk's evolving political stance and the implications of his decisions, maintaining a focus on his significant contributions to technology despite the surrounding complexities.

00:00
Speaker 1
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Speaker 2
so many other people in this country and maybe around the world, I tore through your new 670-page biography, which is titled simply Elon Musk. And I found myself struck by a few themes, but I think one of them is the theme of power and specifically whether Elon Musk, who is the richest man in the world, has too much of it. Not necessarily too much money, but too much power, too much power in private enterprise, too much power in foreign policy, too much power in his family life and his romantic life. And arguably, and I want to talk about this later in the podcast, maybe too much power over journalists like you and me. So that's where I want to start. Well,
Speaker 1
the answer is pretty simple. There's a simple answer, which is yes, he does have too much power. But then if you want to drill down deeper, it's like, okay, how come? And one reason is this all-in hardcore intensity that causes him to make engineering things work. We can leave aside Twitter for the moment, but when I first started this book, every other car company had gotten out of the electric vehicle market almost. They were smashing the cars. He went to the edge of bankruptcy and not only designed good electric vehicles, but he designed factories in America that can make them at scale. So just this year, he's made a million electric vehicles, more than all the other car companies in America combined, fourfold. Likewise, NASA quit trying to send people to the moon 50 years ago or so. It gave up on sending astronauts to the space station when it grounded the space shuttle a dozen or so years ago. Musk has been able to launch more satellites into space and reuse the rockets any company. In fact, this year, he will send, I think, 1,600 tons of payloads and satellites into orbit, which is more than every other country, every other company combined. And not only that, it's four times as much as every company combined. This gives you enormous power when you're the only person who can launch U.S. military spy satellites into high Earth orbit. Boeing can't do it. NASA can't do it. And likewise, of course, in Ukraine, his was the only satellite and communication system that survived, which is why he comes to the rescue of the Ukrainians and would have been crushed because they were no longer able to communicate with their troops. As I'm sure we'll get into, that gave a boy too much power on how to handle those sort of things. But besides just saying, yes, he has too much power, the book shows how did he accrue it. So
Speaker 2
in other words, it's not necessarily a knock on Musk for his will to power. It's in a way a knock on so many of the systems, including the American federal government, that has failed and he has sort of stepped into the breach.
Speaker 1
Well, 100%. I mean, we used to be a nation of great risk takers. And, you know, that's how you get rockets into orbit or make an electric vehicle company. And wherever you came from, it's likely your family took risks, whether they came, you know, from Europe, fleeing oppression, or whether they came on the Mayflower or they came across the Rio Grande. But now we've become a country more filled with referees than risk takers, more filled with regulators and lawyers and guardrail builders than innovators. And I think that's made us sclerotic as a country. We don't have the factories that we used to have to build things. We don't shoot off the rockets the way we used to. And Musk is not only a risk taker, he's risk addicted. I mean, it comes from a childhood that was a very brutal childhood, but he associated risk with pleasure in some ways. Peter Thiel, who helped found PayPal with him, said, you know, most entrepreneurs take risks, but Elon runs towards them, embraces them. There's a picture in my book at one of the birthday parties his second wife Tallulah Riley threw for him, and he's up against a target, and there's a blindfolded knife thrower throwing things at him, and he has a pink balloon right at his crotch.
Speaker 2
And a shit-eating grin on his face.
Speaker 1
Right. And there's no upside to taking that risk. Right. I mean, and there's a lot of downside if you picture the balloon. And yet, he was
Speaker 2
so addicted to risk, he did that. There's many, many instances in the book of the way that when things are sort of calm and peaceful, he creates sort of a whirlwind, almost like a war around him, which we'll get into. Briefly, Walter, I think of you as, you know, the man drawn to genius. You have written award-winning biographies of some of the greatest minds, the greatest innovators that have walked this country and this planet. Leonardo da Vinci, Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, Benjamin Franklin, Jennifer Doudna, most recent book, Steve Jobs, and now, of course, Elon Musk. There are three things combined that I think set Musk apart from these other subjects. First, as we just discussed, he has an amazing amount of power. Many of these other people did, so does he. The second is that he is unbelievably polarizing. I can't tell you the number of people while I was reading this book who would come up to me and say, ugh, I can't believe you're reading that when I'd be sitting in a cafe or something like that. Just revulsion. And then other people came up to me and said, I kind of love that guy, right? He is unbelievably polarizing, even the cover of this book. Obviously, there are people who are selling their Teslas because they refuse to drive a car that he created. Other people are buying them up. Very, very polarizing. Some of these other people also were. But the third is that he is alive. And so you needed him to cooperate with you. You could, in fact, say that you needed him more than he needed you. So what do you do when you're trying not only to write about the richest and arguably most powerful private person in the world, but you need him to cooperate with you? How do you deal with that imbalance of power? You've talked about, you've written about in the book how there were absolutely no guardrails. You could ask him anything, but I'd love if you can reflect a little bit just on that, the dynamic of sort of trying to capture someone who you need to cooperate in order for the book to come out in the way you want it to.
Speaker 1
It was surprisingly easy. I told him at the very beginning, I said, I don't want to do this book based on 10 or 15 interviews. I want to spend two years whenever I want by your side, morning, noon, and night. And he went, okay. And then I said, and the other caveat is, yeah, I got no control over this book. You know, I'm not even going to let you read it in advance before it's published. He went, okay. And it was weird to me, but he has this sense of transparency. And so when I was there, whether it be walking the factory floor or sleeping in a trailer next to his launch pad in South Texas, I kind of receded in the background. I just took notes. I observed, and he did not seem to care. As you know, because you've dealt with him, he's an intense person, but not a person with a whole lot of emotional incoming or outgoing signals. He's talked about being Asperger's. He's definitely on the autism spectrum. And it wasn't as if he was ever trying to push me to do something. And I never felt in any way threatened that I had to curry his favor anyway, because he didn't seem to care. When
Speaker 2
you first started writing this biography a few years ago, Elon Musk had a very different persona, at least in the public sphere. I think the most controversial things he had done up until that point were he had openly tweeted his disdain for COVID lockdowns. He had smoked a blunt on Rogan, but a lot has changed in the past few years. Yeah,
Speaker 1
you know, it was amazing because I was, you call him the most polarizing figure and he definitely is now. And we have trouble in this day and age, holding in our head the fact that somebody can be an absolutely amazing engineer when it comes to doing a Raptor engine that Boeing and NASA can't figure out, but also be polarizing and say god-awful things on Twitter. And what happened in the middle of this journey, when I started it, he was not all that polarizing. He was person of the year. Exactly. He was person of the year in the Financial Times. He had brought us into the era of electric vehicles, brought us into the era of space adventuresome. And then, as you said a moment ago, he was born for the storm. When things are going too well, he tells me at the beginning of 2022, I said, man, you know, richest person on earth now, person of the year. He said, it doesn't make me feel comfortable. It makes me uncomfortable. I was born for a storm and he likes to go all in and shake things up. And I'm like, well, what are you going to do? He says, I'm going to buy Twitter. And that, of course, in my mind, was a mistake because he doesn't have the fingertip feel, finger spits and gefuel, as we would say, for emotional human feelings the way he does for the difference between Inconel and carbon fibers and stainless steel material properties. And then he becomes wildly polarizing. Now, what you got to do when you're writing about this or, frankly, reading about it is you have to keep multiple things in your head at the same time. What makes him polarizing, I think 80 percent of it, is basically Twitter, now called X, both what he tweets on it and the way he runs it and the way he's opened it up and his political evolution from being a Barack Obama fundraiser to being somewhat in that rabbit hole of alt-right, or at least retweeting or commenting on people who are in that sphere. That's where the controversy comes from. But it doesn't affect the fact that he makes rockets and batteries, and you got to keep both in your head at the same time. I'm
Speaker 2
capable of keeping both in my head at the same time. Just want to clarify, would you characterize Elon Musk's politics as alt-right? No,
Speaker 1
I tried to sort of modify it in the middle of that sentence. I think he amplifies a lot of what I would call Tucker Carlson himself and Tucker Carlson fans. I don't use the word conservative, which a lot of people do, because to me that ain't what conservatism was all about. I think he's hard to classify, which is good. I think he's a populist, sometimes believer in conspiracy theories. But on the other hand, a lot of those conspiracy theories turned out to have a kernel of truth to them. So it's complex. And once again, you got to hold some complex things in your head. As you said, it started even with COVID lockdowns. And he was just furious about COVID lockdowns. And then furious that Twitter was repressing things like people wrote the Barrington Declaration, saying that lockdowns are going to cause more harm than the virus might. Now, I've written a whole book on Jennifer Doudna, RNA technology. I'm pretty good at biochemistry. I'm still not sure exactly what the right balance was, but I do know we should have had more of a debate over that right balance. So when I look at Musk's politics, there's a long section in the book about his evolution of his politics from being a conventional Barack Obama supporter. But I don't put a three-word label on it.
Speaker 2
As you were writing the book and he decides, which of course we'll come to, the decision to buy Twitter. And he believes he's born for the storm. That's obviously true. He creates a storm when one is not present on a sunny day. Did you ever have a moment of saying to yourself, this isn't the right time for this book because this man is so clearly in the midst of an evolution. Better for me to sort of continue on and see where it lands. you ever have a moment of saying, this isn't the right time for this book? Yeah.
Speaker 1
I mean, when he bought Twitter or decided to start doing so, say March, April of 2022, I thought, well, that A is going to make the book a whole lot more interesting, more of a roller coaster, and it's going to extend the book. Who knows? I'll end it two, three, four years from now. We'll see. But after a while, I did not want Twitter to become some vortex that sucked the whole book in. Kimball Musk, his brother, said that's going to be a pimple on the ass of his legacy. It's not an important thing. I don't think it's unimportant, and I think it's very revealing of his character. but I did not want the book to be sucked down on what I consider amongst the less interesting and less capable things he's doing. And so then when he finally was able to get Starship to launch, even though it explodes after it reaches the edge of space after three minutes, and when he's able to start his own AI company, and he's able to get Optimus the robot to walk, he's able to get Neuralink chips, FDA approval, to put them in human trials. I thought, okay, the book doesn't end with him figuring out what to do on Twitter. The book ends with him back on his real passions, which are robotics, artificial intelligence, space travel, and sustainable energy. Just
Speaker 2
those small topics.

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