Todd: I don't think this is as clear as a lot of people think it is everyone talks about smart outcomes and we got outcomes that are specific and measurable and achievable. He says the tricky spot is sometimes you just don't know where a class is going to go so there's some middle ground that's got to be there. Todd: We can't have a perfect representation of reality but we can construct it a bit so we have a sense of where we're going.