Take a Position and Carve Out Sandboxes

In this weeks podcast Dan and Ray have a conversation about education with Dr Simon Breakspear. Simon is a globally respected expert in educational leadership and innovation, known for his insightful work on transforming learning environments. His forward thinking ideas around education are reshaping the way schools and school systems are thinking about teaching, learning and leadership. In this episode we talk about: Distinction Between Productivity and Pedagogical Uses of AI: Simon, Dan, and Ray discussed the critical distinction between using AI for productivity tasks in education (such as administrative work and report summarisation) and for pedagogical purposes, emphasising that while AI can greatly enhance productivity for adults, its use in learning processes for students requires careful consideration to avoid undermining cognitive development. Human Development and the Role of Analogue Learning: Simon argued that foundational human development—such as reading, writing, and critical thinking—should precede the use of AI in learning, with Dan and Ray supporting the view that analogue learning experiences are crucial for building the cognitive and personal skills necessary for effective future use of AI. Guidance for School Leaders and Teachers on Navigating AI Integration: Ray and Dan sought practical advice from Simon for school leaders and teachers facing pressure to adopt AI, with Simon recommending a cautious, evidence-based approach that prioritises human development, leverages AI for productivity gains, and introduces AI into learning processes only where it demonstrably enhances educational outcomes. Changing Role of Teachers in the Age of AI: Ray questions whether the role of teachers must change with AI, and Simon responded that while some administrative tasks may be automated, the core human functions of teaching—motivating, engaging, and forming students—will become even more critical, with teachers needing to exercise professional judgement about when and how to use AI in the classroom. Ethical and Equity Considerations in AI Adoption: Dan and Simon discussed the ethical implications and potential inequities arising from AI adoption in education, highlighting concerns that uneven access and premature augmentation could disadvantage certain groups of students and create disparities in skills and opportunities. Practical Strategies for Selective AI Integration: Simon provided practical strategies for integrating AI into education, recommending that schools focus on specific, evidence-based learning processes where AI can add value, such as feedback and retrieval practice, and to avoid being overwhelmed by the proliferation of AI tools. Long-Term Purpose of Education Amidst Technological Change: Simon concluded that the ultimate goal of education is not solely economic productivity but the holistic formation of human beings, arguing that enduring human skills, identity, and community are essential for resilience in an unpredictable future, regardless of technological advancements. Links: Dr Simon Breakspear | Speaker. Author. Researcher. The pruning principle: The Pruning Principle: Mastering the Art of Strategic Subtraction Within Education : Breakspear, Dr Simon, Rosenbrock, Michael: Amazon.com.au: Books Research and Historical References Mentioned • Learning Science & Cognitive Development: Simon referenced the work of Kirschner and Sweller on learning as a change in long-term memory, including declarative and procedural knowledge. Rethinking Cognitive Load Theory for Collaborative Learning - kirschner-ED • Lindy Effect (Nassim Taleb): Simon discusses the Lindy effect, suggesting that things valuable for a long time (like bicycles or spoons) are likely to remain valuable, as a way to think about educational priorities amid rapid technological change. Lindy effect - Wikipedia • Daisy Christodoulou: Simon cites Daisy Christodoulou's perspective that while AI may be a better writer, it cannot know what you actually think, emphasizing the importance of writing as a way to learn how to think. Welcome - Daisy Christodoulou | 21st century skills: what are they and how can we teach them? Daisy Christodoulou • Historical Technology Adoption in Education: Simon refers to the rollout of one-to-one devices and mobile phones in schools, highlighting unintended consequences for attention and learning, and drawing lessons for AI adoption. NSW Government begins mobile phone ban in public high schools • Mathematics Education Practice: Simon references the established practice of delaying calculator use in mathematics until foundational skills are developed, as an analogy for AI use in learning. Calculator Use - National Council of Teachers of Mathematics • DeepMind CEO on Coding: Simon mentions a recent interview with the CEO of DeepMind, who argues that understanding how things work is necessary, even if AI can code better than humans. Google's DeepMind CEO says there are bigger risks to worry about than AI taking our jobs