5683 DON'T LIE TO ME!
Freedomain with Stefan Molyneux
00:00
Exploring Marital Fidelity and the Influence of Divorced Friends
This chapter explores the intricate issues surrounding marital fidelity, focusing on the challenges faced by those in committed relationships. It critically examines the influence of divorced friends on perceptions of loyalty and the importance of maintaining vows amidst personal struggles.
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"Hello everyone-
"I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend of mine, we'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for pseudonymous people. This is a bit long-winded I know but its an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head around that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do and it involves a lot of the same philosophical principles and precepts that Stef tackles in my favorite episodes, listener call-ins. I appreciate in advance your time and consideration. Maybe with your feedback I can be of service to my friend Bob and his wife somehow. Let's get right to it:
"Bob has known Jane for about 2 years now. They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for 8 or 9 months now. From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc. and were pretty well-aligned in all manners. They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship and they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are "pushing each other's trauma buttons", so to speak and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs with each other.
"Their arguments, as they've both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical aggression towards the other, they've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind. Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other and how happy they seem to be together.
"Like it is for many married couples, their first year of marriage has been quite challenging. Both have had some difficulties navigating family of origin issues, such as Jane's divorced parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father against each other. Such behavior angers and saddens Jane, who in these circumstances, finds herself re-experiencing old wounds from her parents' particularly contentious divorce when Jane was a teenager. Bob is not without family of origin drama of his own. I know more about Bob's childhood as I've known Bob a lot better and for longer than I have Jane, but I know he was often subject to his mother's wild vacillations in mood along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child. Interestingly enough, Jane's and Bob's fathers both are quintessential Boomers straight out of a 4chan meme, often enabling the bad behavior of their wives with a dearth of philosophical complexity on display in their unironic use of the cringe phrase "happy wife, happy life". Passive, weak fathers both, but contrasted to Bob's disdain and disconnection from his own father, Jane has quite a close, borderline emotionally incestuous attachment to her father as from what it sounds like, she would often assume the role of emotional support child to her father during the divorce. This was an issue previously brought up for discussion by Bob in premarital counseling, as he had some misgivings originally if, upon marriage, Jane would indeed accept him as the paterfamilias or stay loyal and enmeshed to such an unhealthy degree with her father. Jane promised him that it was the former, though the doubt still lingered in Bob's mind. There were several conversations that the couple had about the fact, incomprehensible as it was to Bob (and me tbh), that Jane was 31 years old at the time she met Bob, had never had a relationship and this didn't seem to be much of a concern to her father. Bob confided when they first started dating to me how strange it was to him, especially in the modern Tinderfied dating world, how a woman as fit and pretty as Jane could be a 31 year-old virgin and suspected her father of holding her back from her goal of finding a husband with whom to start a family.
"Then in early March came the gravest challenge to their now 3-month old marriage. Bob received word from his mother that his 13 year-old nephew had killed himself, a gunshot to the head. This was of course devastating to both Bob and Jane of course, but especially to Bob, for it was his own brother's child, a boy with tremendous promise who excelled in music and suffered from depression, nearly identical to Bob did at that age. Unable to sleep, eat and feel any interest in sex with his wife, Bob was distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again after 5 years sobriety. This was something Bob vowed never again to do as Jane expressed her intolerance for substances of abuse when they first started dating. One night a couple weeks later, Bob was arrested for misdemeanor assault after a fight during a night out at the bar (he had told Jane he was at an AA meeting at the time) and when he called from jail, Jane was furious at Bob, for the drinking and the dishonesty she despised in more or less equal measure.
"The next day, Bob was released from jail and out of desperation to get back to the sober life he had come to appreciate deeply, he checked himself into the hospital for detox. Surely, this would be a good-faith attempt as well to win back Jane's heart, as part of her forgiveness of him would hinge on whether or not he attempted to correct the problem that caused the harm to her heart in the first place.
"On the next day, during the hospital's visitation hours, Bob was called from his room and informed that he had visitors. Visitors, visitors like, plural? Bob thought maybe Jane brought me, or another mutual friend, an elderly neighbor they both befriended on a walk around the neighborhood one evening while they were still dating and who was a big supporter of their relationship. But to Bob's shock, it was not me nor was it their mutual friend who was the other visitor. There seated at the table was Jane and her father. Bob's heart sank and he became angered by his presence. He asked Jane what she was thinking by having her father drive 7 hours to be party to a conversation that should be only the place of the two to have. He refused to sit down and talk with them any further. When he was discharged from the hospital several days later, Bob was presented with a note from Jane telling him she was going back home with her father to process things. A month past and every attempt Bob made to contact Jane went unanswered. Last week, Bob received a knock at the door. It was a porter from a law firm who handed Bob a summons. "Dissolution of Marriage". "The petitioner (wife) alleges fraud". "The marriage should be annulled due to fraud as the respondent (husband) failed to disclose to the petitioner that he suffers from a mental illness which affects his ability to be forthright and truthful with the petitioner."
"This is where my friend Bob is now. He was and has now been going to AA meetings daily since the day he was released from the hospital. He's sad, of course, but he's managing it well, got a new job, working out everyday, has a sponsor and is working the steps in AA. All of this really makes my head spin. There's so much to mine for discussion here. "In sickness and in health" is one. It's so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned in a couple months. How one tragedy can set off a series of events that changes the course of so many lives. They were planning on having children one day in the not-so-distant future. I've been Bob's friend a long time and really came to like Jane in the past two years. I was at their wedding and Jane's family all raved about what a good guy Bob is. Only a week before Bob's arrest, Jane's stepmom and father came down to visit and remarked how happy they both seemed to be. I don't even know what to make of all this and maybe you guys could help me (and them both possibly) understand each other's side a bit better. Do you think Jane's loyalty really was ever with Bob or did her father come between them? If you were Bob, how would you respond to receiving the dissolution of marriage summons? If you were Jane, would you stick it out with Bob if you were witness to his sincere efforts in sobriety? As long as I've known Bob, he's been a decent dude honest to a fault, and I think he's been forthright with me about everything, for instance, he told me that when he was having trouble being interested in sex with Jane so he resorted to watching a porn clip while she was getting ready for bed in attempt to gain an erection. He even told me she caught him because when she came to bed, he left the screen open. He's been fairly outspoken against porn in the past when it comes up in conversation so I imagine it took a good bit of honesty and humility to even bring that up to me. I know I'm biased since he was my friend before Jane was my friend but damn, I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage, let alone THEIR marriage, could just break up like that. What are your thoughts?"
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Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material, as well as targeted AIs for Real-Time Relationships, BitCoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-Ins. Don't miss the private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
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"I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend of mine, we'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for pseudonymous people. This is a bit long-winded I know but its an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head around that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do and it involves a lot of the same philosophical principles and precepts that Stef tackles in my favorite episodes, listener call-ins. I appreciate in advance your time and consideration. Maybe with your feedback I can be of service to my friend Bob and his wife somehow. Let's get right to it:
"Bob has known Jane for about 2 years now. They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for 8 or 9 months now. From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc. and were pretty well-aligned in all manners. They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship and they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are "pushing each other's trauma buttons", so to speak and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs with each other.
"Their arguments, as they've both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical aggression towards the other, they've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind. Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other and how happy they seem to be together.
"Like it is for many married couples, their first year of marriage has been quite challenging. Both have had some difficulties navigating family of origin issues, such as Jane's divorced parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father against each other. Such behavior angers and saddens Jane, who in these circumstances, finds herself re-experiencing old wounds from her parents' particularly contentious divorce when Jane was a teenager. Bob is not without family of origin drama of his own. I know more about Bob's childhood as I've known Bob a lot better and for longer than I have Jane, but I know he was often subject to his mother's wild vacillations in mood along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child. Interestingly enough, Jane's and Bob's fathers both are quintessential Boomers straight out of a 4chan meme, often enabling the bad behavior of their wives with a dearth of philosophical complexity on display in their unironic use of the cringe phrase "happy wife, happy life". Passive, weak fathers both, but contrasted to Bob's disdain and disconnection from his own father, Jane has quite a close, borderline emotionally incestuous attachment to her father as from what it sounds like, she would often assume the role of emotional support child to her father during the divorce. This was an issue previously brought up for discussion by Bob in premarital counseling, as he had some misgivings originally if, upon marriage, Jane would indeed accept him as the paterfamilias or stay loyal and enmeshed to such an unhealthy degree with her father. Jane promised him that it was the former, though the doubt still lingered in Bob's mind. There were several conversations that the couple had about the fact, incomprehensible as it was to Bob (and me tbh), that Jane was 31 years old at the time she met Bob, had never had a relationship and this didn't seem to be much of a concern to her father. Bob confided when they first started dating to me how strange it was to him, especially in the modern Tinderfied dating world, how a woman as fit and pretty as Jane could be a 31 year-old virgin and suspected her father of holding her back from her goal of finding a husband with whom to start a family.
"Then in early March came the gravest challenge to their now 3-month old marriage. Bob received word from his mother that his 13 year-old nephew had killed himself, a gunshot to the head. This was of course devastating to both Bob and Jane of course, but especially to Bob, for it was his own brother's child, a boy with tremendous promise who excelled in music and suffered from depression, nearly identical to Bob did at that age. Unable to sleep, eat and feel any interest in sex with his wife, Bob was distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again after 5 years sobriety. This was something Bob vowed never again to do as Jane expressed her intolerance for substances of abuse when they first started dating. One night a couple weeks later, Bob was arrested for misdemeanor assault after a fight during a night out at the bar (he had told Jane he was at an AA meeting at the time) and when he called from jail, Jane was furious at Bob, for the drinking and the dishonesty she despised in more or less equal measure.
"The next day, Bob was released from jail and out of desperation to get back to the sober life he had come to appreciate deeply, he checked himself into the hospital for detox. Surely, this would be a good-faith attempt as well to win back Jane's heart, as part of her forgiveness of him would hinge on whether or not he attempted to correct the problem that caused the harm to her heart in the first place.
"On the next day, during the hospital's visitation hours, Bob was called from his room and informed that he had visitors. Visitors, visitors like, plural? Bob thought maybe Jane brought me, or another mutual friend, an elderly neighbor they both befriended on a walk around the neighborhood one evening while they were still dating and who was a big supporter of their relationship. But to Bob's shock, it was not me nor was it their mutual friend who was the other visitor. There seated at the table was Jane and her father. Bob's heart sank and he became angered by his presence. He asked Jane what she was thinking by having her father drive 7 hours to be party to a conversation that should be only the place of the two to have. He refused to sit down and talk with them any further. When he was discharged from the hospital several days later, Bob was presented with a note from Jane telling him she was going back home with her father to process things. A month past and every attempt Bob made to contact Jane went unanswered. Last week, Bob received a knock at the door. It was a porter from a law firm who handed Bob a summons. "Dissolution of Marriage". "The petitioner (wife) alleges fraud". "The marriage should be annulled due to fraud as the respondent (husband) failed to disclose to the petitioner that he suffers from a mental illness which affects his ability to be forthright and truthful with the petitioner."
"This is where my friend Bob is now. He was and has now been going to AA meetings daily since the day he was released from the hospital. He's sad, of course, but he's managing it well, got a new job, working out everyday, has a sponsor and is working the steps in AA. All of this really makes my head spin. There's so much to mine for discussion here. "In sickness and in health" is one. It's so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned in a couple months. How one tragedy can set off a series of events that changes the course of so many lives. They were planning on having children one day in the not-so-distant future. I've been Bob's friend a long time and really came to like Jane in the past two years. I was at their wedding and Jane's family all raved about what a good guy Bob is. Only a week before Bob's arrest, Jane's stepmom and father came down to visit and remarked how happy they both seemed to be. I don't even know what to make of all this and maybe you guys could help me (and them both possibly) understand each other's side a bit better. Do you think Jane's loyalty really was ever with Bob or did her father come between them? If you were Bob, how would you respond to receiving the dissolution of marriage summons? If you were Jane, would you stick it out with Bob if you were witness to his sincere efforts in sobriety? As long as I've known Bob, he's been a decent dude honest to a fault, and I think he's been forthright with me about everything, for instance, he told me that when he was having trouble being interested in sex with Jane so he resorted to watching a porn clip while she was getting ready for bed in attempt to gain an erection. He even told me she caught him because when she came to bed, he left the screen open. He's been fairly outspoken against porn in the past when it comes up in conversation so I imagine it took a good bit of honesty and humility to even bring that up to me. I know I'm biased since he was my friend before Jane was my friend but damn, I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage, let alone THEIR marriage, could just break up like that. What are your thoughts?"
GET MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING', THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI, AND AUDIOBOOK!
https://peacefulparenting.com/
Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!
Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, multiple interactive multi-lingual philosophy AIs trained on thousands of hours of my material, as well as targeted AIs for Real-Time Relationships, BitCoin, Peaceful Parenting, and Call-Ins. Don't miss the private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!
See you soon!
https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
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