Warning: this episode contains descriptions of war.

When Ukrainian troops crossed over into Russia two weeks ago, it appeared at first to be a largely symbolic gesture. But in the time since, it has emerged as a potentially pivotal moment in the war.

Andrew Kramer, the Kyiv bureau chief for The Times, explains what’s behind the audacious Ukrainian operation, and Anton Troianovski, the Moscow bureau chief, explains how Russia’s response could reshape the conflict.

Guest: 

• Andrew E. Kramer, the Kyiv bureau chief for The New York Times.
• Anton Troianovski, the Moscow bureau chief for The New York Times.

Background reading: 

• Planned in secrecy, the incursion was a bold move to upend the war’s dynamics and put Moscow on the defensive — a gambit that could also leave Ukraine exposed.
• President Volodymyr Zelensky wants to hold Russian territory as leverage in future talks. In Moscow, many doubt the strategy.

For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

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