Collaboration Dynamics and the Third Mind

In this NBN episode, host Hollay Ghadery interviews Gregory Betts, one of the poets behind the collaboration, Muttertongue: what is a word in utter space (Exile Editions, 2025) – by Lillian Allen (Toronto’ s seventh Poet Laureate, a dub poet, writer, and Juno Award winner), Gary Barwin (poet, writer, composer, multimedia artist, performer, and educator), and Gregory Betts (whose writing explores the boundaries between self, other, and alien – the radical other).

This is a collaborative collection that crackles in its exploration of land, language, and page space. Combining the intensity of Dub Poetry with the intricacies of experimental poetics, Muttertongue presents a sonorous soundscape echoing with the question of where (and why) is here (hear). The book opens with a dialogue between the three authors, and concludes with an Afterword by Kaie Kellough. The release of the book recedes a new music LP by the three authors (June of 2025). This is a project by the Muttertongue Trio: Allen • Barwin • Betts.

Lillian Allen is the 7th Poet Laureate of Toronto and a professor of creative writing at Ontario College of Art and Design University. She is a two time JUNO award winner and trailblazer in the field of spoken word and dub poetry. Lillian’s debut book of poetry Rhythm An’ Hardtimes became a Canadian best seller, blazing new trails for poetic expression and opened up the form. Lillian’s latest collection Make the World New: The Poetry of Lillian Allen, edited by Ronald Cummings was published in Spring 2021 and is part of the Laurier Poetry Series. Her other collections, Women Do This Everyday and Psychic Unrest are studied across the educational spectrum. Her literary work for young people includes three books: Why Me, If You See Truth, and Nothing But a Hero. She received the Margaret Laurence Lecture award, 2020 and the Gustafson Distinguished Poet award, 2021. She is a Toronto Cultural Champion and the recipient of an Honorary Doctorate for her contribution to Canadian Letters. Her current art practice veers into vocal sonic poetics and explores pre-language and post-language poetics.

Gary Barwin is a writer, musician and multimedia artist and the author of 34 books including Scandal at the Alphorn Factory: New and Selected Short Fiction 2024-1984. His national bestselling novel Yiddish for Pirates which won the Leacock Medal and the Canadian Jewish Literary Award, was a finalist for the Governor General’s Award and the Giller Prize and was longlisted for Canada Reads. His last novel, Nothing the Same, Everything Haunted won the Canadian Jewish Literary Award and was the Hamilton Reads choice for 2023-2024. His last poetry collection, The Most Charming Creatures also won the Canadian Jewish Literary Award. His most recent novel, The Comedian’s Book of the Dead will be published in 2026. He has received the Life Membership Award from the League of Canadian Poets and has twice been shortlisted for their Spoken Word Prize. His art and media works have been exhibited internationally. A PhD in music, he has been writer-in-residence and taught courses at many universities and colleges. Born in Northern Ireland to South African parents of Lithuanian Ashkenazi descent, he lives in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Website here

Gregory Betts is a poet and professor at Brock University and the author or editor of 25 books. His poems have been stenciled into the sidewalks of St. Catharines and selected by the SETI Institute to be implanted into the surface of the moon. He has performed his poetry at such venues as the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Games as part of the Cultural Olympiad, the National Library in Dublin, and the Sorbonne Université in Paris, amongst many others. He is an award-winning scholar of the Canadian avant-garde, curator of the bpNichol.ca Digital Archive, and Literary Arts Residency Lead at the SETI Institute.

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