And to feel like maybe you're on your own with it, which I think was a kind of a

through line

in this across like everybody's life. So that being said, I think it was like a positive thing for the story that I had that experience, but it was extremely difficult on a personal level because it was just like I have PTSD. So a lot of the work in the story was emotional work to process the material so that I could even see it clearly rather than just being like totally overwhelmed by the enormity of the pain. And is that something you do you don't have to go into it if you don't want to, but do with therapists or do on your own or. Yeah. So I started doing trauma therapy. I have a therapist for a long time, like a talk therapist and she sort of recommended it

because she's like

this is like sort of classic PTSD stuff. And so I started doing this thing it was during the pandemic so it's like similar to EMDR, but it's something that's easier to do remotely. And it's called brain spotting. And so I got this woman and I actually I still see her like we do it just every once a while when things are really intense. And it basically helps you kind of process trauma through not your conscious level, like through the part of your brain that is in the survival mode. And that's been super helpful because like I can get my head around all of this. It's just like my body that's like,

you

know, it's also helped me understand trauma so much because I've

gone through this process. But

it does also it I think ultimately the material is so it just is what it is. It's so sad. It's so heavy. And I think that one of my major goals with the book was to make it readable, like quickly readable. So I thought a lot about the pacing because I was like, I don't think people would want to sit there. I know, you know, I did

sit there for a long time with it. And I just know that that's like, I want people to understand it

and to feel it, but I don't want them to have to draw it

out.

Well, one of the things that also kind of like refracts into the story are the way that other people have portrayed it and written about it and how it's appeared in the media. And you said earlier that that, you know, you were at times angry at the coverage that you were seeing that was ignoring this whole other side of the story. But did you have a fear that that coverage would overwhelm your ability to get the story out that people wouldn't want to hear this other side of the story or was it always clear to you that if you could capture it, people would want to know it? I think both of those things are true. Like I felt like I knew that I could make this case, but I also felt like, I mean, I was a freelancer at this time. So this is a lot of what freelancers deal with anyway, right? It's like, yeah, it's a constant pitch and a no or like a silence, you know, that happened a lot with a story because I wrote three stories before I got the book deal. And different outlets, right? Yeah, two of the stories were at the appeal. And then the story about Dante ran in the Washington Post. And that was like shortly before I got the

deal. Yeah.

So what were we saying? I'm sorry. Whether people would want to hear this side of the story after there was a podcast about it. There were stories about the adoptive family. You know, there was not saying in a pejorative way, but it became like a true crime story. Maybe I do me in a pejorative way a little bit, but like, it just became a phenomenon. Yes, it was sort of motivating, I think, in a way, because I was like, none of these have it, right? Like, that's just how I felt. There wasn't anything else in the peep in the outlets that did have some things. It was like, oh my reporting, which

is good, you know,

like, and I'm glad that it was part, at least the part of it. But I felt like there was just so much more to it that people

weren't seeing.

I did have like a New York Times editor tell me that I had pitched Tammy story, which was again an exclusive, right? And he said, well, we might put like a couple paragraphs of that into another person story who's working on something. We can't like guarantee you a byline. It was like, I think they offered me $150. So I

was

like,

that would be like, but I got

on the phone with them. And he said, like, you know, I just want to say like, everybody knows that foster care is fucked up. We want to focus on how these women broke back. And

this

is like a quote because I

definitely seared into my mind. But

it was like, okay, so that's a no. It's like a clear no for me, right? And also a lot of that stuff helped me sort of shape my argument. If that makes sense. Like shape, what I was trying to say, because I felt, you know, my ultimate goal with the book is that this changes the narrative on the story. So that was like the motivating impulse behind all this work. Well, no one could read this story and get to the end and not realize that the system is fucked up. Like, there's, it was just not it would not be possible to read, read the book and not not think that. But then I feel like there's this trap for a book like this, where this kind of like providing solutions versus like quote unquote becoming an advocate. And I always feel like you read the book review, you're in no situation because you read the book review where someone's like, they didn't really provide any solutions. You get criticized for that. But you also can get criticized for like being to quote unquote activist, you know, about what you want. So you do attack that at the end. And what was your thinking going into that? Did it just come naturally out of everything you'd seen? You know, what you wanted to say about what we should imagine could be different. You know, my editor had said like we should have something at the end that sort of talks about some of the issues more directly because part of my goal with the book itself is to really teach a lot like people a lot about the system without it feeling like I was teaching them, right? Like so, so I was trying to make it really like, you know, the chunks really tight and kind of keep it again with the pacing of the story and all that. So I didn't ever veer off too far from that from the narrative, you know. And so it was a chance for me to like speak directly, which I basically saved that to the very end. I did a lot of reporting on the child welfare system outside of this book

during that time

with that in mind. Like what is

what would I have to say, you know, because it is. It's like, I'm

not a policy maker. I'm a journalist. I do think though that journalist can often be like,

oh, I'm just like, you know, I just write stuff down. But it's like, you

know, I do

know a lot about this now because I've been learning

all about it. So I do have something to say and I don't have opinions. And I also, my opinion is a little bit, it's not so like, well, it's

bad because a lot of

people end up there on the child welfare system. Like it could be better,

you know.

So I try to push the argument into maybe a little more uncomfortable territory of thinking about, you know, what purpose the system serves and maybe how we could help kids without punishing their parents. And even could we start from scratch at some level or like fully redesign the system rather than tweak it. Yeah. And like how much we could do outside of the system completely that would actually directly help kids, which is money. Essentially, we have no safety net and we, and this is our safety net. We just take kids away from their parents. What if we, I mean, I mentioned the child tax credit because there's like now a lot of good research around how much that helped. Like directly reduced abuse and neglect. So now

that the

book's coming out, first I'm interested in like how prepared are you to like relive the experience of this reporting and even this story. Yeah. I'm right in the waves. I feel like it's. It is tough. You know, I've had a break about six months between like when the book is really done and now that it's coming out. I felt like I legit needed to recover, like physically, emotionally, mentally recover.

And I do feel

like I have done that. It definitely hasn't been easy to go back into the frame of mind that

I would, that I needed to be in to do the

book. But I think this part's really important because this is the part where people can learn

about it. I mean, this was, this is the whole point, right? Like that people do learn

about it. So, you know, more therapy. I've been, you know, like,

I've been hitting up my

therapist. Also, I think there's some kind of healing thing about going back into it after having six months away from it and not thinking about it because I do see it a little differently than when I was fully immersed. And do you feel like you have to prepare the family for it coming out? Like, okay, now there is going to be some level of attention on this again. Are you ready for this? So this

is the part that where I've been crying. So

apologize.

Well, Nathaniel passed away. Last Thanksgiving. So, Nathaniel was the one that was like kind of my touchstone in the reporting. He didn't get to read it, but his family did like he had a family, like a grown family before he had Dante and his siblings. So, I was able to get them like a galley of the book. Dante is incarcerated again currently. So I haven't been able to really reach him. He's been like moving around. So, I'm not sure how much of this is going to touch him, you know, in terms of like he's not really in the world currently. The outside world. I mean, yeah. So, you know, I think the families are going. I don't know how it's going to go for them. I never lost touch with them. I mean, sometimes they come in and out because things are happening in their lives, but yeah. So, like, I don't know how they're going to, you know, I don't, they haven't read it. Like Tammy hasn't read it. Dante hasn't read it. So yeah, we'll see. I mean, I feel a little anxious to hear what they think of it.

I probably should say something to them about maybe getting some attention.