Josh: I think we often feel like we are in opposition to kind of the business, you know, that often it's sort of like our job is to stand up for something that will be manipulative or abusive of users. And a lot of times what that means is that the root of attack to, to, for defending the user is to talk in the language of the business. Josh: Design is about persuasion on the one hand and selling the design to the people who are buying it or paying for it. The best outcomes are things that can align business interests with customer interests as perfectly as possible.