Courting Customs of the Old West

In this episode, Simone and her guest delve into the fascinating history of mail order brides in the Old West. They explore why men and women opted into these arrangements, what each gender valued in a partner, and how societal values have changed over time. The script covers a variety of firsthand accounts and marriage ads from the 1800s to early 1900s, highlighting the practical and often business-like nature of these unions. The hosts also discuss the broader cultural implications and talk about how modern individuals might learn from these historical practices.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to go into an interesting deep dive to learn more about dating in the old West. We are going to look at the widely practiced concept of mail order brides in the old West. Talked about why people opted into it, why they did it.

Review a lot of firsthand accounts of what men were looking for back then and what women were looking for to understand what they valued in a partner and how that has changed in society. Because I think that that's something to go back to, like different cultural periods to one, better understand our own ancestry because I think a lot of Americans have forgotten what their great grandparents valued, what they were looking for in partners, et cetera.

And we, we, through seeing different cultures, we can be like, oh, this is a different way to relate. To marriage and sexuality. And, and a lot of people would ask, they'd be like, how really, like women would do this. They would like get in a carriage and like drive out to meet with someone in the middle of nowhere in like the old west.

Like, weren't they afraid of like being turned into [00:01:00] like a sex slave and like chained up in the basement or something. And it's like, well actually there wasn't that much risk of that because that was sort of like a strictly like worse value proposition for a guy than a wife. Sex slaves are very high maintenance.

Especially if you're living on the frontier, like yeah, they're

Simone Collins: not doing that much work, which is, I mean, I guess you could, you could force them to work. There was like that, that tragic story recently of the. Mm. Well now man, but who had been trapped in his house for a long period of time and he was occasionally let out to clean the house.

So he did do some housework, but then otherwise he was in his room. Yeah. That's

Malcolm Collins: strictly less like even if they were just cleaning the house, that's strictly lesser than you can get out of a dedicated wife who like you, you dedicated part of your time to. Right. You know, like you get a lot more labor out of her just by being nice.

So we'll, we'll get to like the dynamics of this, although there was an instance. Where a woman did get married to a nice guy, only to realize shortly after her wedding, and we'll go into this case in a bit, that he had robbed her stage coach on the way over, not knowing it was his future wife, [00:02:00] and he was just on the low down, also a stage coach robber.

Oh, oops. Well, he was nice about it too. He didn't know it was gonna be his future wife, and he let her keep her wedding outfit and everything. And Oh, that's, she was like, oh, I'm gonna get married. And then he's like, oh, yeah. He's like, I can just imagine his face when she arrives, like, oh, sh uhoh, uhoh.

What a start, huh? That's, that's before getting into all of that. I want go into some marriage in the old West. Okay. Rucks coffee, coupons and rings. In late 18 hundreds, rucks Coffee was a dominant brand across the American frontier, especially among cowboys, homesteaders, and miners. Coffee was a staple, and Arbuckle stood out by including redeemable coupons or premiums in their three pound bags.

These weren't just throwaways. Think of them as loyalty points. Customers collected them to train for goods like kitchenware, razors, and notably. Finger rings, the rings often simple bands or [00:03:00] modestly adorned were marketed as keepsakes or engagement symbols. The claim of 80,000 wes a year was, was one of their, their things.

So the old wesler was a common practice of you would buy. Now, the, the reason this brand of coffee became popular among the old West first is they built a a way. To seal it so it stayed fresh longer so they could ship it further. And so, then the next thing they did is they built a system where you would get like this coupon book that you could use to buy things, but one of the most popular items in the coupon book was wedding rings.

And so people would save up for various wedding rings that they would buy with coupons.

Simone Collins: That is that, I mean, that makes sense. It, it sounds honestly like buying. A wedding ring with your credit card points today, which a lot of people do. So I bet if I log onto our credit card rewards, I will find ways to buy a ring.

Which time all day. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. We spend all our points on, hey, this year, never

Malcolm Collins: [00:04:00] one to rest on his laurels. Our buckle next came up with a voucher plan. He printed a coupon bearing his signature on each package. A given number of coupons would earn the bearer one of a hundred items available in Arbuckle's catalog.

The wishlist book of its day items included everything from a toothbrush to a double action revolver. A young man could even order a golden wedding ring for his lady. Love his lady love. Oh, I love that. You could be killed by a gun that somebody got was coupons in the old West. Not only was the coffee a lifesaver to those early westerners, so was the packaging coffee was shipped with sturdy main fur crates, 100 pound bags to the lot.

The crates were used to make furniture coffins and cradles. The Navajo Indians even used the wood to make a hogans and trademark flying angel that embezzled each package of coffee , adorned mini, a Western Christmas tree.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. That is very interesting. Right?

That is so cool. I love that.

Malcolm Collins: I, I thought you'd get excited about this. I was like, [00:05:00] that's a, that's a cool little anecdote. I'm moving that right to the beginning.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hold on. I wanna, I wanna see if

Malcolm Collins: I can find pictures of these, these books. I, I, I, I could find pictures of the books, but not the rings.

Simone Collins: Well, I mean, I imagine the rings looked pretty you know, nondescript.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Like just a gold band. Yeah. That's my guess. So a common cording custom in the old West was something called cording mirrors. Cording mirrors were another quirky tradition, more common in rural America, including the old West during the 18 hundreds. They were small handheld mirrors, often four to eight inches long with wooden or metal frames, sometimes carved or painted with simple designs like or flowers.

Aw, a sooner gifted one to a woman. He was courting, and it wasn't just about vanity mirrors were pricey and were rare on the frontier where glass was a luxury. Mm-hmm. Giving one signaled thoughtfulness and investment, like gifting a high-end gadget. Today the mirror had symbolic weight too.

It was intimate. A personal item tied to appearance and identity, suggesting trust and admiration. Some stories claim that women used them to reflect on their suitor's [00:06:00] intentions, . Although that likely was romanticized folklore, practically a mirror was useful for a woman living in a sod house or cabin with few possessions.

In some cases, couples exchanged mirrors with the man keeping a smaller one as a memento reinforcing mutual commitment. That's sweet. They both would bring a mirror and the man would just keep whichever one happened to be smaller. These mirrors that weren't mass produced like our buckles rings, they were often handmade or bought from peddlers, making each one unique.

By the 1880s catalog companies like Sears began offering cheap versions, but earlier a mirror might cost a day's wages serious for a farm, hand or cowboy. Their popularity waned by the 19 hundreds as manufactured goods flooded markets, but they left a mark in diaries and family heirlooms often passed down as quote the mirror he gave her in quote.

That's, that's so also sweet.

Simone Collins: And yes, I checked in 100%. We could buy a wedding ring with credit card points even on Etsy. You can now like convert credit card points to an Etsy gift card. [00:07:00] So. Well, I love it. And I, and I love craft the, the,

Malcolm Collins: The, this, this mirror idea. It's actually really sweet that whatever your only possessions, it's a

Simone Collins: keepsake thing.

And practical. I love this mixture of practicality and writing. Well, it tied to your identity, symbolic. Mm-hmm. I should give you all your also like, take care of yourself. Like, girl, I forget, like a

Malcolm Collins: vacuum, like you look rough.

Simone Collins: Here's the evidence. It's a mirror.

Malcolm Collins: But, and, and it's important to understand how little people owned back then when we were going back through my family diaries at that time.

And it was like my great great grandfather talking about being raised. And the episode's called People used to Like Their Parents. That's the, it's a really good episode, I think one of the best we've ever done. Because it was going over his diaries and at one point he catalogs everything he owns and everything he owns was.

Like a dirt roof shed that they slept in an outhouse and then a, a weaving loo, a loom. And, and apparently some pigs. And that was it. I mean,

Simone Collins: pigs are so, looms are useful too.

Malcolm Collins: That

Simone Collins: all

Malcolm Collins: sounds good to me. Yeah. Yeah. But I was, it's, it's interesting to [00:08:00] me that today, like, have you thought about making a catalog of everything that your family owns?

It would not be like a four thing catalog. It's not like, well, we've got some pigs and I've got a, a loom and an outhouse.

Simone Collins: Well, and in just a few years you'd buy a house on a catalog, so. I don't know. Catalogs really saw this. Amazing catalogs were the pre-internet, internet, and

Malcolm Collins: I love that. Yeah. Like Sears, you know, you can, in my hometown of Dallas you can drive around and some of the old Sears houses that were bought from a catalog are still standing in, in neighborhoods that I lived in.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And they're, they're nice houses too. Like, I've seen YouTube tours of them. They're well-built, built, classic design. They, they look a lot better than modern modern builds and McMansions on average.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, for if people are wondering like, like, okay, I'll, I'll go into the story now of mail order brides.

Yes. The story of the famous mail order brides of the Old West began when the gold rush brought men over the rocky mountains to new mining communities. Oh, only a few [00:09:00] prospectors struck it rich, but many young men stayed in the west, mining, ranching, farming, hunting, or opening businesses. As towns begin to grow, these men wanted wise to create.

Families and to build more stable lasting communities in the Western territories, men outnumbered women drastically, sometimes by as many as nine to one. Oh my gosh, not good odds. The obvious answer was single women from the east willing to start new lives. And this wasn't just a phenomenon in the Old West, it was also a phenomenon in Australia.

So here are some Australian ones because, you know, you had the men in the Outback farming and stuff trying to bring women out and, and they're really interesting to analyze because you get an idea of what. A man valued in a partner back then. Like when he's out and he's like, I want a woman that meet these criteria this, this is what he's thinking.

And, and keep in mind how this would work. He would like go to the Telegraph office and you'd be like, I wanna contact one of these, these magazines or newspapers out eastern and, you know, one of the major cities in Australia. And I, I wanna write you know, to them like descriptions of what [00:10:00] I'd want in a wife and, and, and, and.

Okay. So, and you also gotta think, really it

Simone Collins: was more like singles ads. I mean, it was kind of male, it was long distance singles ads.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And you've also gotta think when you're hearing this, what it says about like, how they're trying to sell themselves to the woman as well. Like their understanding of what the woman values.

Okay. So. This one, matrimonial two young men, age 31 and 25, wish to correspond with young ladies with a view to matrimony. Photos exchanged if necessary. Ladies must be able to read and write and capable of conducting a store on goldfields if required.

So what's really interesting in this is first, like they don't care that much what they look like. It's like, okay, if you, oh, photo's optional.

Simone Collins: I'm little confused by two men together looking. No, they're,

Malcolm Collins: they're, they're okay. So they both want basically the same thing. A competent woman, right? Yeah.

And so they're like, well, let's just pool on the ad, you know? Because we both want a woman who's like, good at accounting and business. I'm just picturing this

Simone Collins: really cute gay couple that's like. [00:11:00] We just need wives,

Malcolm Collins: beards, that's it. No, no, no. You see that pretty frequently in these is that people will pull, it's just going in

Simone Collins: together.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They're like, well, let's just go in together and, we'll, we'll look at the, the, you know, the correspondence and see which ones we like. And then what's also really interesting here, and we've noted this before, and like people don't believe us, we're like women. Historically we're expected to work and work in the family business.

This is what a corporate family was. The idea of a nuclear family where a woman stayed at home and did nothing, does not represent what your ancestors were

Simone Collins: doing. No, you were, you were getting a business partner. These were more ads for business partners for sure, except

Malcolm Collins: for a very short time from the 1910s to like the NI 1970s.

So if you go back to the old, we, you know, li Li listen to what the, the one qualification they want in a woman. Ladies must be able to read and write and be capable of conducting a store on a gold field if necessary. IE you need to be able to run a business. That's what I need you for. I'll do like the gold panning and stuff like that, and you run the [00:12:00] store.

Like that's the way it often worked. Which is a really interesting, and understanding what was expected from gender dynamics in a relationship. And also what you'll see in a lot of these is women were expected to manage the finances. So here's another one. Matrimony a young man about 24 years of age of respectable connections, having an income of about 120 pounds per annum.

Wishes to obtain an introduction to a lady about 19 or 20 agreeable in person and capable of looking after domestic affairs property. No object. Okay. Huh?

Simone Collins: So again, what he, what he's

Malcolm Collins: saying here is he's, he's not asking about looks. He's saying, I need a woman who can look after my financial affairs. Which is really fascinating.

But I think it's also signaling to the woman like what type of guy these are as well. Yeah. Like this is, this is part of a two part signaling. This is, look, I'm a respectable guy. And you know, you come, you meet with me and we'll, we'll start a business together and we'll build something that matters together.

Right. You know, it's not like, Hey, I'm looking for a. Mama, you know. Any, any thoughts on that before I go further? [00:13:00]

Simone Collins: We need to get back to this. Okay. This, but this does what I'm thinking already when I hear this is there's this phenomenon within the rationalist or EA community online, whereby some people will post marriage bounties.

Mm-hmm. And they're just like way too wordy versions of this. And I, when I compare these succinct ads with the marriage bounty descriptions. I'm really seeing the difference between why people were able to get married back then when being practical and why practical, logical people today can't.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, keep in mind they're paying for the letter on these, but I understand.

I know, but no, my point though is like

Simone Collins: these people worked out to like, what do I really need? You know, someone. Who owns property and can, you know, or like someone who's practical and not crazy and can help out domestically around the house, doesn't have to be a supermodel. Whereas when I, when I go through some of these, these marriage bounties that people describe, it's like long documents [00:14:00] and like I'm an INTJ and I'm looking for someone with like.

They're being completely unreasonable about what they want and, and they, they also are being way too wide. But, but

Malcolm Collins: I think it's, I think it's unfair to just point this out with the EA community. It's, it was in our own fan base. We'll talk to people and they're like, I want like a hot woman, and I'll get a hotter woman and like, you know, I'll go a Latin American and find a hot wife, you know, and it's like, yeah.

No, you, you shouldn't even be caring about that. Like, you know, like, you, you should be focused on their, like when I met you, your attractiveness was of, I think, a very obvious to me of, of little concern. I was much more interested in your industriousness and your breadth of knowledge and, and curiosity to learn new things.

Mm-hmm. That was it. That was like my criteria, like. Yeah. It was, it was not big. But I was, I wanted people who, someone who's world class at those things, which is, I think, you know, why our relationship has gone so well. But to, to go to the, whereas, you know,

Simone Collins: there's, there's other, like, when I look at other ads, and this is from later periods, so you're talking around the, the gold rush around 1849 to [00:15:00] 1856, I imagine all the way up until like the 1920s, people were still that.

Practical, like I'm, there's, there's a Pittsburgh Press 1921 ad that just reads, I'm 27. Employed by the government. Have a small but reasonable salary, will make some poor working girl from 18 to 25. A good husband in a happy home must be Protestant. No dancers, flirts, or street walkers. Need answer. I had that one.

I was gonna

Malcolm Collins: do this one. I thought this was a good one. It's so. No, but it's always, I, I want a woman of, of strong moral character, Uhhuh. And, and not even, no, he doesn't, he, he's not even here. Like, oh, you know, you can't have never slept with someone before. You can't have never, yeah. Just like,

Simone Collins: don't bite your character.

Be someone who's addicted to that. That's it. He's being reasonable.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He cares about like religious ideological compatibility. That makes perfect sense. I actually really don't understand how interfaith marriages work. Yeah, and

Simone Collins: that's the thing is, is it, it. And you, you don't have to say this in so many words, and I think when you say it in too many words, then [00:16:00] you, you're losing people and you see his

Malcolm Collins: aspiration here is to be a good husband to somebody.

Yeah.

Simone Collins: He, he's, he, he, he's explaining right up front, I'm a man of modest means, right? Like, I'm not making, I'm not a sugar daddy. I'm not a wealthy man. But if you're poor and you want a decent, stable life, I'm your guy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You know? That's

Simone Collins: great.

Malcolm Collins: Here's one. The respectable man desirous of forming a matrimonial alliance with a young and respectable female, but I love that line instead of a wedding, a matrimonial alliance.

That's what I, that sounds good.

Simone Collins: That sounds really, that's prestigious. Sign me up for that. Hmm. People, maybe people go for it more if it's a matrimonial alliance and not a marriage.

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. Oh, hello? Sorry. It's somebody from the New York Times. I, yeah, I, I, I'm happy to take your call now.

Yeah, it is just a fact checker from the New York Times.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So, she's gonna call back. She's got something else going on. But you No, I, I mean, I think that we should view marriages that way as matrimonial alliances. Mm-hmm. That's like a really powerful way, much more so than like a [00:17:00] matrimonial submission.

And this is when people are like, oh, in the old days, women submitted to their husbands. Does this sound like you want somebody to submit to him? Like, no, A matrimonial alliance mm-hmm. With a young and respectable female is informed of a person ready and willing to change the state of the single blessedness for the hazardous chains of wedlock life.

Exclamation mark. So. He's saying willing to change the state of single blessedness for the, the hazardous chains of wedlock. Like saying, I, I know that a marriage is a risk for, for both of us, but, but I want somebody who's willing to take that risk. Yeah. Now here's the, here's the first thing.

We've got her appearance very attractive, a temper, excitable, and a mind capable. To enlighten the dark shadows of his sly pilgrimage. Wow. He's looking for a muse. Yeah. He's looking for somebody. No. You know, he's like, I want somebody who's attractive, excitable. I, I like excitable women too. Excitable.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Yeah. I guess, yeah. Someone who gets [00:18:00] jazzed about your ideas. Yeah, you're right. I mean, not all of these are agnostic to appearance, like the, the one that, that says desires to meet a single. Or widow lady of some means and of refinement in Christian age 33 to 43, weight 1 25 to 145 pounds. Height five, four to five seven.

Stylish and of neat appearance, but plain. Which is really interesting.

Malcolm Collins: So you had, you had read another one or.

Simone Collins: Well that, yeah, I mean they're not agnostic to appearance. Not all of them are, but like weight ranges like 125 to 145 pounds, height five, four to five seven. Stylish of neat appearance, but plain.

Malcolm Collins: plane. I love it. Okay, so, I asked like, why, why did women do this?

Right? Mm-hmm. Women who answered the ads for wives in the West were those who weren't finding men or men of quality at home, or those who wanted to get away from home for some reason. Reasons included. Having strict parents being subject of a scandal that was ruining their reputation or simply wanting [00:19:00] adventure or a new start after something bad had happened at home.

These women needed to find a husbands elsewhere far from where they lived. Surprisingly, no shortage of women answered these male order bride ads. Many old Western marriages were made this way. In most cases, the marriages went smoothly as both parties represented themselves accurately. No one wanted to travel a thousand miles or more across a continent or wait for someone to travel.

That far to get to them, only to find out there were lies involved that would make the marriage unpleasant for one or both of them. Right. However, the occasional stories of mail order bride ventures went awry. And, and I think this is the core thing is you know, the reason why this didn't end up poorly that frequently is just because you gotta live the rest of your life with this person.

Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah. You're not gonna,

Simone Collins: Lying works on a one-off. I'm never going to see you again basis. It doesn't work if you need to depend on that person the rest of your life, and your spouse, whether you're antagonistic toward them or not. They can [00:20:00] really make your life miserable. Your life is in their hands.

Your food is in their hands. Your safety is in their hands. If you are sick and vulnerable, they decide whether you live or not. No. As a

Malcolm Collins: husband, like that's absolutely true. If you piss off your wife, she can just dab you at any time in the night. Like Yeah. Or

Simone Collins: if you're, if you're deadly ill, she could just not getting water.

You know, like the, there are ways. You know, even without, it was, it was difficult

Malcolm Collins: actually. There was one serial killer woman who just like killed tons of husbands. Yes, yes. I I think

Simone Collins: there's, there's been multiple of them in history 'cause it's, it's a pretty easy game to play.

Malcolm Collins: One notable example though, by all means, not the only one, is that of 22-year-old school Mistress Elizabeth Berry and Bachelor Minor, Luis Dr.

Pelvis.

Called her dream will be, I pretended I couldn't pronounce it. Lewis described himself as a lonely minor in his ad. Elizabeth was concerned about becoming a spinster since she was still [00:21:00] unmarried at 22. I wonder if this is related to Brittany which was approaching old age in the old western marriage market.

That is hilarious. 22 was considered approaching old age back then. Oh dear. So Elizabeth packed up her things after a short correspondence with Louis and married him in California on the way her stage coach was robbed, but one of the three robbers allowed her to keep her luggage, which had her wedding dress and other belongings for her new life.

In it, she noticed the man had a ragged scar on his hand. Later that day, she reached Lewis's house. And they went to the justice of the Peace to get married after she got dressed for the ceremony. After the exchange vows were pronounced man and wife. Elizabeth thought she recognized Louis' voice and saw the same ragged scar on his hand she had seen in the robber when he signed the marriage license.

Realizing he was one of the robbers she fled and history does not record what became of her. It turns out Lewis was indeed a minor, but he neglected to say in his ad that he had supplemented his income by robbing stage coaches with a couple [00:22:00] of his friends. Oh dear. Okay. So on June 4th.

Simone Collins: So they didn't, didn't necessarily have their happily labor after she just ran off.

Just ran away. That's really dangerous because Too high

Malcolm Collins: status, too, too high. You know, women just expect you to have money

Simone Collins: without working for it, you know? See, that's the thing. And also, but like she's out there and she's vulnerable. I would, I mean, ran away into take my chances, you know?

Malcolm Collins: I don't know if she like ran well, and if the ratio was nine to

Simone Collins: one, she could probably.

Take her pick of the litter.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. On June 4th, 1871, Sarah Baes hopped down from a wagon in Fort Bridger, a remote military and trading outpost at the crossroads of several pioneer trails in what would one day become Wyoming Bains. A 24-year-old seamstress from Louisiana had just spent several months traveling 1,500 miles through Roadless territory alone, but she wouldn't be alone for long.

She'd come to Fort Bridger to get married. The [00:23:00] groom was Jay Hensley. Imagine that months traveling alone as a woman in the old West

Simone Collins: unaccompanied that is. Terrifying

Malcolm Collins: because, you know, well that your husband wouldn't grape you. A bandit might, a Native American might help you. They don't have

Simone Collins: any interest in maintaining your Yeah, man.

Unaccompanied that is

Malcolm Collins: Native Americans during this period, some tribes, not all tribes we're genuinely terrifying and monstrous. They would, they would, do really horrible things. The, the one that you always use that you know, you know, off the top of your head was the the one that, pocahontas came from that, which, which is not one of the tribes in the, they had

Simone Collins: some torture involving, burning and pulling your skin off, or

Malcolm Collins: they would pull your skin off with a clam. With clam, yeah, with clam shells. But they weren't even like the most violent Indians were generally the plains Indians.

Like this is where you had the big war-like cultures that developed during this period. And so really a scary, brave thing to do. The groom was Jay Hensley. A. 48-year-old farmer who'd left Ohio some years before to seek [00:24:00] his fortune out west. The two met after Hemsley responded to an ad placed in the matrimonial pages of the October 12th, 1869 edition of Frank Leslie's Illustrated Weekly.

They corresponded via letter for more than a year before Hensley proposed the day after Brian's arrived at Fort Bridger and they were married by the forts minister in a small ceremony on the banks of Garage Creek. The next day, they left to open a general store in Ville Cal, California Placerville.

Platter pla placerville plaster, I don't know how to say it. In the foothills of the Sierra Nevada, the Hemsley were married for 51 years. Aw. So here you see a few things. You know, one, it's not like the husband is the breadwinner. They went to open a store together. Yes. As soon as they, and they like, started their life, it wasn't like he had a store operational and then he got a wife.

It was like, Hey, what do you wanna spend your life doing? 'cause we're gonna be doing it together. And they go open a store together. Right. You know. And they end up married for 51 years. It seems like a, a pretty, you know, [00:25:00] harmonious. And I will say, it always gets to me, we, we should actually do an episode that's like a realistic take on native American pioneer interactions because the.

I mean, I think you have two periods. You have the one period where, you know, in, in 19 50th Americana, where, you know, people naively understood it as like cowboys versus Indians. And the Indians were generally the bad guys. Like, just like, you know, except for like the, the wise friend Indian Yes. Who would, who would be a guide or whatever.

Yeah. But then in, in like Wakeville it became, you know, settler's always bad. Like Indian's always good, like, and I think that that's also really a twisted understanding of history. And there's actually this great one where they were like, they were interviewing some like ultra progressive and, and they were talking about how, you know, before the settlers came, like the Native Americans all got along.

There was never any war, there was never any torture. There was never, I mean, first off,

Simone Collins: there is plenty of. Of a history of Native American tribes doing terrible things to each other, independent? No, no, no. They didn't [00:26:00] believe that.

Malcolm Collins: They believed this narrative of like, they were like these wise, like mystic people who like didn't do that.

And it's like, no. There, there were some tribes that were like unusually nice, useful like the Cherokee would be an example of this. But you know, there were others like the Apache and the Comanche and the Seminoles that were, no, they were

Simone Collins: pretty, they were proper scary.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, proper scary. The Seminoles don't even mind this today.

You know, they've done pretty well. They ended up buying the hard rock cafe chain at the tribe. Good for them. That's nice. And they've done, that's nice for people who dunno, the Seminoles were the ones who lived in the Florida, like Everglades and swamp areas and, and nobody really conquered them ever.

And, and nobody wanted the land. That's an advantage. Yeah. No, no. Hey, no one wanna

Simone Collins: be out there. Yeah, that is.

Malcolm Collins: But it keeps you strong, you know, when you live in, in, in catering. That's

Simone Collins: why we're so on city states in undesirable areas. That's actually really great example of like, people are like, why do you wanna build in the far north?

Well, before the same reason The Seminoles were Okay. Relatively speaking. Yeah. 'cause they were in. Floridian Swamp zone of death.

Malcolm Collins: [00:27:00] Yeah. So here is a, a, a story that was put in a newspaper. Mm-hmm. Moat County, ranch, man, secures, charming housekeeper. Oh. Married, four hours after they first met. And this is a very old writeup.

This is like a modern writeup. Mm-hmm. The young lady came in on the belated train, something after four o'clock was met by her intended husband, and before nine the deed was done.

Now it must not be imagined that the two were altogether strangers before taking this step. Miss Bets and is a sister of Ms. Frank LeClaire, who lived near Kyle's place on the South Fork. They had been coordinated by mail for a couple years and recognized each other instantly. When the young lady alighted from the train. Rh Green was one of the guests of honor at the wedding, and being a mutual friend of the interested parties aided greatly in their acquaintanceship. The bride is a charming lady who has made her home in Denver for several years. Mr. Cal is one of the enterprising young ranch men of so Eastern Mofo County, [00:28:00] and has a host of friends who will be.

Joy in, in wishing both much happiness. Oh, so there's a few things to note from this story. The first is that the way that this wedding was structured is, is they had mutual acquaintances who helped to source it, which was really common. Yeah. This really seems like a

Simone Collins: community endeavor. I.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Another is which were common. They weren't always, you know, you had some like genuine mail-in brides. But then in other instances you had you know, the. People being matched by their family members. But here I'd also note where she came from. Right. I've mentioned that you have sort of genetic selection events when you're dealing with the, with the West.

And a lot of people think of the West as being like a single wave, when actually what it was is multiple waves. Absolutely. And then the most adventurous people from the last wave, settling the new wave. Mm-hmm. So you have. First wave settling in the Appalachian region. Then the next wave settling out in like Texas and, and in, in the west.

And here this woman who is going out to this really rural region was already settled and living in Denver. Yeah. Which

Simone Collins: was

Malcolm Collins: a

Simone Collins: very, yeah. She was a [00:29:00] daughter of risk takers who took an even bigger risk. Yeah. Magnifying effect, which is many. Why many people argue that San Francisco has this sort of collective genetic inheritance of.

Startup risk takers, that's what you got there.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And it's also important to, Ima understand like how bad things were for women in these cities in terms of like what led them to go out and do this. Oh. Which was that you know, often jobs if you didn't have a husband were hard to get as a woman.

You know, you could end up in one of the, like a sewing factories, which is Yeah. In a workhouse. Really nightmare existence. Yes. You, God, that'd be a fun one to do a episode on, or a depressing one to do. Episode one, the old workhouses. Mm-hmm. Basically they, they kept you like a slave. You know, you, you'd rather be a sex slave than at one of these workhouses.

Yeah. Where they, they keep you working, you know, extremely long shifts every day of the week in very

Simone Collins: unsafe conditions.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. On these giant looms, you can still go tour them and stuff like that. And, and that was, [00:30:00] you know, if you, if you weren't from a wealthy family or you weren't like the oldest kid from a wealthy family you know, this is, this is what was waiting for you if you didn't secure a husband.

Yeah. And well that, or like dying on the streets or becoming a pickpocket or a beggar or a thief or, you know. So, for a lot of these women, this was actually a very good option. Also, keep in mind that many of them were coming from like Puritan, strict households or something like that, and we're having the rebellious phase and we're like, you know what?

I'd really like to, you know, live a bit more free. And the, the west was significantly more gender equality than the east, like women in these states and territories. You know, in the east sometimes they weren't allowed to own property, they weren't allowed to, et cetera, et cetera. That wasn't true when they got to the West.

And the arrangements that they were able to form were, were generally significantly more gender equal. So if you're a young woman who had a sense of adventure and wanted a degree of equality, you could find that.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: , but people, people also like, you know, made a little fun of this. Like, it was a little negative, like the early days of dating online. Like I remember when we were dating online Oh yeah. When you,

Simone Collins: you would get the [00:31:00] side eye for dating online. Yeah. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Well, I think the, the important thing to note is that not dating IRL, like not meeting your partner at church or in school or having them be your neighbor is, is a risky endeavor.

And is viewed with derision and suspicion by non-risk takers, by conformist to non-risk takers. Yeah. And that's why online dating is seen this way. This is why these mail order brides were seen this way, and yet this behavior has been actually quite common for a long time. That's how, I mean, essentially that's how my grandmother,

Malcolm Collins: yeah.

Simone Collins: Married my grandfather. They corresponded via mail for some time after, like after war.

Malcolm Collins: They, they had met meeting in

Simone Collins: person just a few times after the war in Paris, in France. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, so The Hartford Corin remarked in 1910, the Wichita Eagle reported was Sardonic glee that Miss Effy Newland, one of the wealthy young women of Hoaxy Kansas, married a Mr.

[00:32:00] Lopez, a sailor of Key West Florida, after she jokingly responded to his ad for a wife. But Lopez was a splendid writer, and the girl soon became infatuated with his love making. I love it today. Love making means something totally else. But she, they meant like being sweet in in letters. Yes. My goodness.

The paper claimed Lopez traveled to Hoaxy and the couple were married while the parents protested. Oh, other stories fueled the panic that marriages made outside society bounds were dangerous. The Los Angeles Herald reported on October 31st, 1897 that a 3-year-old man shot and killed his heavily insured at 19-year-old wife, oh.

Who he met through an advertisement in a matrimonial paper. Oh, that's, of course some stories had happy endings, marriages that that did end well. So like one headline from 1907 Declared Girl writes in Secret and Wins Rich Planter, the story of an Indiana woman who met her husband through an ad in matrimonial paper, the spare pit years writing to each other in secret, and they married in person.

This is, this is a story from an old newspaper or something that it's. Poorly, [00:33:00] red hair, bulk Cupids plans, mail order bride. Forgot to ask prospective husband about it. Trip here in vain, Kentucky missed. She shows

Simone Collins: up, but she's a Jin.

Malcolm Collins: No, he's a g and, and, and she immediately renounced their marriage possibility because he was redheaded, because she said, quote, I just couldn't live with a redheaded man.

I couldn't. They are always so cross. It's actually just like literally her, her stereotype against people with red hair. Man. Hilarious. Oh, okay. This is a crazy sta off from an old newspaper, like who knows how many these old stories are true. Mm-hmm. But brother and sister drawn together is through matrimonial ad Council Bluffs, October 18th.

The most remarkable romance ever brought to light in southwestern Iowa has befall James Covington, a prosperous farmer residing in the Nua botta bottom 20 miles east of here. Covington advertised for a wife and received a response from a widow in [00:34:00] Georgia. They exchanged a number of letters and he sent the woman money with which to come to him.

They were married on the day of her arrival. He met her at the depot and they were mutually dumbfounded when it was discovered that the intended bride was none other than Covington's sister from whom he had been separated at youth. He heard she was killed in a whale ray wreck and mourned her is dead.

Each married and other, and their respective spouses died. The sister's name being changed by marriage Compton did not recognize her in correspondence.

Simone Collins: Did they get married? Do I, did I hear that right?

Malcolm Collins: No. No, they didn't. Okay. They were previously married and they had, that's why they didn't, you know the, the name.

Okay. Who knows if it's real. It's a sweet story of it is like, I want it. It's, I mean,

Simone Collins: yeah. At least you discovered your sibling is still out there. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: So to go through some original texts because I, I love reading these. This is from 1865 in the Chicago Tribu Correspondence. Desired for the [00:35:00] love of the thing, fun or matrimony, any young ladies between 16 and 21.

This, this is, this was like a more flirty one, like either for marriage or just for fun. Oh, dear.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: and, and then this is an ad for people to join, like a service for doing this, either rich, handsome, pretty stylish, accomplished, refined Italian or brilliant. By two gentlemen, A wrong, a young, a rich young widower, SH layered oh, this for two men and a rather handsome, steady fellow.

The only son of wealthy parents. Oh boy. Correspondence, honorable or secret. Honorable

Simone Collins: or

Malcolm Collins: secret? Mm-hmm. Oh. This is a, what? These men know what's up. This is a, that is a horny marriage ad. They're ready for something

Simone Collins: raunchy. AKA secret. That is interesting. Wow.

Malcolm Collins: A widow. This is from a, a widow or merchant and stockman lives in Kansas, 56 years old, height six feet weight, 210 pound brunette black hair and eyes wishes corresponding with [00:36:00] ladies of same age without encumbrances, and whiz means must move in the best socially, and be fully qualified to help make a happy home object, matrimony.

So he is like, I, you need to be, you know, upper cl you need to, you know, not be classy. Yeah. Classy, right? There's a lad in Missouri with a flat foot seeds in his pocket, a brick in his hat, a blue eyes size tin shoe called the bull of the woods. And the boy for you. Well, there's a lot

Simone Collins: of contemporary lingo on that one.

My goodness.

Malcolm Collins: A brick under his

Simone Collins: hat and seats in his pocket. What?

Malcolm Collins: On Earth. He, he's, he's giving a vibe with that one. That's like one of, he's absolutely no slinging it. Here's one. Once pretty girl age 17 to 20. Advertiser is 29, 5 feet, nine inches Tall, blonde can laugh for 15 minutes once a pretty girl are laughing.

These are tall

Simone Collins: people. Are they overstating? Just like people are on online dating ads. Now I wonder because this, this is really tall. [00:37:00] 5, 9, 6 foot, like these are very tall heights for that time period. We've seen what beds look like from that time period. This is in clothing too?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Probably lying then.

Yeah, I doubt. I doubt.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, at least some things never change.

Malcolm Collins: Respectable young man, 20 years old, good city position desires, acquaintance of modest young lady, age 17 to 21 with home nearby. Object to attend operas and church. Perhaps more.

Simone Collins: Perhaps more. You know, he's showing off his why. He's

Malcolm Collins: like, I go to operas in church and that's what I want to do with you.

Maybe. Yeah. He's really.

Simone Collins: Really for g signaling there. But again,

Malcolm Collins: this is not, you know, these are not guys who are like, I'm looking for a hot woman who can, who can make a good dinner. Like, no one's fed that, right? Like, no one's been like, you know. Okay, here's one from 1898. 30 Wealthy Lost Mother for whom I sacrificed use Dread, A Lonely Future Seek Husband and True Companion.

Oh. This woman is desperate. This, this little and 30 [00:38:00] at that age was ancient. You know, she's really looking for, she wanted. That's rough. This one was in 1899, widow 44 Southerner, A stranger own home West End would like the Hearthstone of a heart swept and the cobwebs brushed away. Matrimony. Oh, sorry.

Would like the Hearthstone in heart swept. Getting poetic. Okay. Rushed away. So he is being poetic. He shine, you know, whatever. Okay, here's one, here's one. An older bachelor returning from the mines finds his. Old sweetheart. Married and old acquaintances, scattered desires. Lady acquaintance object marriage.

It's from 1904. I I like that. Very straight to the point. I was gonna marry someone, like I'm not, like a flirt or whatever. She just got married when I got back. This one here from 1921. Businessman gentleman, Christian, 33 to 43. Age 125. Oh yeah. So this is the one where you were talking about height and weight.

He's very

Simone Collins: specific about weight. Yes. And

Malcolm Collins: skills he wants is music. Sonography typing, bookkeeping. Good penmanship. That's, [00:39:00] that's interesting. Okay. Here we've got here, uh oh, oh AD for husband. I like this one. Okay. You got gold diggers. Even in the past 38-year-old brunette seeks a husband with an automobile.

This is from 1921.

Simone Collins: Needs a she? Does she wanna marry a man or a car? This is very interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Cars would've been quite a new contraption back then. Like, ooh, I want one of these men who lives fast here. Here's one from 1881. I think this one is interesting. Young person of Nobel birth. Beautiful is Helena housewife, like Penelope, et cetera, seeks a husband through press entirely without acquaintances of the masculine sex.

And so what she's saying here is, look at me. I'm so educated. I'm a little you know, oh yeah.

Simone Collins: But to. Is she describing herself to Helen of Troy? I mean, good luck lady. Yes. And a and a wife like Pene and Pene. She, no one wants to marry a woman who thinks she's literally as beautiful as Helen of Troy.

That is just trouble. I don't care how beautiful she's, she don't have

Malcolm Collins: any male acquaintances. Maybe. Maybe she'll [00:40:00] be Yeah, for

Simone Collins: a f*****g reason. No one can tolerate her. She's. I can't, I can't even deal with one, one collection of sentences that she wrote hundreds of years ago. Okay. Almost hundreds.

Malcolm Collins: So I found the first one that mentions cooking.

Gentleman 35 rancher in Montana seeks lady under 30 adept at household duties and not afraid of hard work. So it starts with the hard work thing. Must know how to cook and mend. That's good. Yeah. So rather than keep going, I collected some more, but this episode's run long and I think that we get the idea of what people were looking for.

Yeah. The question is

Simone Collins: how do, how can we bring this back? Because I like this and I like this idea of like, of, of looking for a business partner. You know, Hey, looking for someone who, you know, can, can move out here knows how to do these things, follows this religion. I have

Malcolm Collins: a great idea what, okay, so just like the Old West, our podcast is predominantly male watched.

Yeah. So what women can do, if you want and you wanna reach out to us and [00:41:00] have like a, a like short thing at the end of an episode where we pitch you to the audience, right? Yeah. Yeah. Then we forward you correspondence. If you're looking for marriage and kids, you, you, you, you let us know and we'll make a pitch for you at the end.

Email

Simone Collins: us at partners@pragmatistfoundation.com with a succinct like these ads. Description of what you're looking for. Also, one more pitch also for the ladies watching this. There is a society of mothers who have stepped back from, you know, rigorous full-time careers to do more parenting, who nevertheless want to be involved in business and start businesses and kind of.

Work together, kind of like in a, in a writer's club to keep each other honest and move forward and actually get those businesses started. It's called undercurrent. If you're interested in joining this, also email us at partners of pragmatist foundation.com. We're not running it, we're not the founders of it, but we, we met the founder at Natal Con and she's a really cool woman.

[00:42:00] Also a mother of a bunch of children who's she has a finance background also very professional, and it's a cool group. So email us as well if you're interested in that.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. But I, I, I like this idea of of, of keep it short, simple, and what really matters to you, you know? Absolutely. And I think that that'll also help with, with personal framing, right?

But

Simone Collins: yeah, but I love that. I love you. You recognize that our podcast is the wild West, a lot of risk taking, high achieving intelligent men and, and, and some women.

Malcolm Collins: Here's, here's a sweet one from 1883. Hmm. I want a wife to talk with at day's end. Someone gentle to make this load some place home.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Wanna give him a hug? You know, it's okay, little man. Yes,

Malcolm Collins: it's probably not. He

Simone Collins: probably died a very painful death.

Malcolm Collins: Lives mostly alone. A lot of that was actually a, a, a fun one from a a Thousand Ways to Die in The West. I thought that was actually a, a fairly funny movie with a interesting premise [00:43:00] of, of a like I think it sold pretty wrong.

Like it sold like, oh, all the ways you could die in the West is what makes it funny, but what makes it funny? Is taking somebody with modern sensibilities and values and ideas of gender roles and putting them in an old West environment and just watching them constantly like flabbergasted at how different things were back then.

Mm-hmm. And how much nobody cared.

I have only the finest healing tonics and elixirs procured from the farthest corners of the globe.

Ogden's celebrated stomach bitters. God, look at the ingredients. Cocaine, alcohol, morphine, mercury with chalk. What the hell is mercury with chalk? Science and red flannel. Red flannel. There's shirt in here. Pieces of shirt.

Malcolm Collins: Here's one that I think you'll find from, from 1889, widower 50. Texas owns 200 acres, seeks a lady with some capital to join in matrimony and improve the land. Well.

Simone Collins: Just like he wants an infusion of this is, yeah. No, this is a growth equity marriage. I, no, I'm [00:44:00] not signing up for that.

Nice try. I.

Malcolm Collins: I love you so much, Simone. I'm, I'm glad I got you through the modern version of one of these. I reached out to you.

Simone Collins: I'll have,

Malcolm Collins: you know, did you, did, you were the trollop and I really appreciate that. Thanks. Sorry. You were a, an aggressive woman. In, in, in the, in the deed of, of, of, of macaroni.

And my,

Simone Collins: my first message to you was a question about your. Startup. Okay. Oh, oh, okay. You were being

Malcolm Collins: slim

Simone Collins: and you were like, let's discuss you over dinner. And I was like, okay. But no, it was always about business with us. Thank you. You were not interested in the startup at all. You, of course I wasn't. I was interested in your stupid face.

I love you too much. Oh my God. I love you too much. Love

Malcolm Collins: you.

Simone Collins: I am really lucky. I ended up with you just letting you know that. Sorry. I did submit it though, [00:45:00] and it, it

Malcolm Collins: put, you got it as an unlisted video. Can you send me the unlisted video just so I can check? It works. The link that you sent,

Simone Collins: I just checked that it worked and I just submitted it so it's a little late, but Sure. Here's the unlisted video.

Malcolm Collins: We are submitting to Andreesen Horowitz.

We got to round two applications. They liked our pitches of both of them, both for the AI video game project and for the school. So that is so exciting. So exciting. It is

Simone Collins: exciting. It is really exciting.

Malcolm Collins: You are just an absolute star, Simone. And she, you know what else is on my

Simone Collins: unlisted YouTube videos?

It's, it's insane. There's the gist of gig averse. There's an original, and this is 2022 description of the Cols Institute, which is crazy from our original fundraising for it. Wow. And I have our SRE spot, Andres. We, we did that on this song when we were on Peruvian

Malcolm Collins: tv. The [00:46:00] top, one of the top Peruvian TV shows had us on at one point.

But hold on, you were on NPR today and you were like, it was exactly like that scene from Parks and Rec. Like they had this NPR accent and they were all like low energy.

Leslie could one say that a book is nothing more than a painting of words, which are the notes on the tapestry of the greatest film ever. Sculpted One could say that, but should one join.

Malcolm Collins: And the bio ethicist was like, well, of course no one would call you a Nazi Simone for what you're doing. And you're, yeah, you're like, no one would describe

Simone Collins: that as like what the Nazis did.

And I'm like,

Malcolm Collins: every day. Like progressives don't know how crazy their own party is. Like, just, just not even close. I, I thought what we're gonna do for the next episode, he had more

Simone Collins: eugenic use than I did because he believed that there were some things that universally everyone could agree we should screen out this.

And I'm like, Nope, that's.

Malcolm Collins: No. Like, nope, they wouldn't agree on that. They [00:47:00] wouldn't agree with you. Horrible. Yeah. And that's, that's crazy

Simone Collins: that like progressives have more eugenic views than we do. But we're, we're the bad ones. We're evil. We're the one, sorry. Not, not, sorry,

Malcolm Collins: actually. Yeah, no, and I've been, I've been getting boiled at something 'cause I've been watching people angry at, at a lot of our, like, friends, like the, the lady who was on our show, science lady Sabina Hofstetter.

Because she you know, championed a book that was like, Hey, science is getting too woke and it's causing issues.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And the guy was like, oh, how could you say that? When Trump's in office and said, we're gonna rail on him, we're gonna say we won the war on science. We defeated science.

Josie, what did you learn about picking daffodils? I, I just wanted take this one. I was just, I just wanted to put, I just wanted to put flowers in the house so we can go off, can go to the store to get some blueberries. [00:48:00] Oh, okay. Testy wants blueberries. We got a goat.