Finding a “real” job isn’t easy. But more copywriters and content writers are interested in trying. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Copy Chief Matt Snyder who has hired lots of copywriters over the past couple of years. He shared the mistakes copywriters are making and what it takes to get the attention of a hiring manager. Even if you don’t want a “real” job, what Matt shares in this episode will help you connect with high-paying clients and land more work. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Matt’s newsletter
Matt’s LinkedIn
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Want to land a real job as a copywriter or content writer? It’s not easy. But help is on the way. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast.

Most of the listeners to this podcast are freelancers or contract writers. If you’re like them, you generally work on projects or retainers for a variety of clients. And you’re good at it. But some writers crave the stability that comes with a regular job—either part-time or full-time—with an actual employer paying wages and maybe even providing benefits.

A handful of freelancers I’ve worked with over the years have dipped their toes into the corporate world to work primarily for a single client, or for those who are looking for part-time jobs, have landed work that provides some security and regular income to go along with the unpredictabilty of freelancing.

But finding those jobs isn’t easy. They’re out there for sure, but within hours of a copywriting or content writing job posting on LinkedIn or any other job board, the hiring managers receive hundreds of applications. Getting found in that slush pile isn’t easy—even for the very best writers.

Recently in The Copywriter Underground, I invited a friend of mine who worked for decades as a job placement specialist for creatives, to share her best advice for copywriters looking for “real” jobs. That training is inside The Underground now. When I announced we would be hosting that training, another copywriter, Matt Snyder, reached out to offer his advice. Matt is the Head Copywriter at a digital agency and works with a team of five or six writers. He hires a lot. And he sees a ton of applications, resumés and other creative attempts to get his attention. So when he offered, I suggested we record our discussion and share it here on the podcast.

That’s what this episode is. Now, I know I said this is about getting hired to real job with a company. But everything Matt shares is applicable to getting hired by freelance clients as well. I think every copywriter, every content writer, and every freelancer writer who listens to this episode will get a lot from what Matt has to say. So stay tuned.

As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. We’re talking about getting work today, so I should probably mention the resources available in The Underground that will help you do that. Starting with the workshop with my friend, Jessica, the placement specialist. Her advice will make a difference if you’re applying for what we tend to refer to as “real” jobs. We also have workshops from experts like Laura Belgray who shares how you can stop waiting in line and “duck under” the velvet ropes holding you back. And Parris Lampropoulos who shared the exact pitch he used to get his first five clients, then how he went on to double his income every year for the next five years—do the math, that’s a lot. There’s also our in-house training about ways to find clients and an entire course on sales. Plus dozens of other workshops, templates, copy critiques, monthly coaching, and more. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.

And now, my interview with Matt Snyder…

Matt, Welcome to the podcast. I was checking our back episodes because I swear we’ve had you on the podcast before and turns out we haven’t. So we should have probably had you before, but I’m glad that we’ve waited because what we’re going to talk about today kind of came out of a lot of things that have happened since the last time you and I were even on a call together. So this should be pretty good. But let’s start with your story. How did you even become a copywriter?

Matt Snyder: Um, great question. Uh, I feel like I’ve lived many lives, so it’s kind of hard to turn it down. But, um, I, I always like to say my love affair with writing online or publishing anything online started with a Zynga account, like way back.

Rob Marsh: That’s a long time ago.

Matt Snyder: Yeah. Way back in like 2003. So, Um, like right when I got into college, I was like, I’m real. I, I kind of was dabbling into journaling and I thought that this online medium was going to be kind of cool. Um, so that was like, I think blog spot was maybe starting. And so I just started publishing stuff on Zynga and it was ridiculous. I don’t even bother looking cause I don’t even remember what my account was or anything. Um, it was, it was ridiculous, but I just, I feel like a lot of trial and error started there, but that’s kind of when I realized that like, I was, I kind of had a knack for writing. And then, um, a lot of my professors in school were like, Hey, you’re pretty good at writing. And I was like, great, but I didn’t want to go that route. Uh, I was like, I’m gonna go into ministry. That’s why I went to school for undergrad, um, left. And, uh, decided that, you know, I wanted to do mission work, didn’t know where I want to go. So I kind of did this, this, uh, year long mission trip adventure thing. And they gave everybody a blog, uh, posts or like a blog to, to document their journey on or whatever, and their thoughts. And so I did that and, uh, it kind of took off. And even the, the organization was like, Hey, you’re, you’re pretty good at this. So when you come back, do you want to work for us? and kind of help us market the programs. And I was like, sure. So that’s what I did. When I got back, I mean, it was great because when I was away, that’s when the market collapsed in 2008. And so I got back and I kind of had a weird job. But I’m a self-taught marketer and that’s kind of what I did. I just read every book, talked to everybody I could, and it was just trial and error. And so I kind of fell in love with marketing that way. Did a lot of blog writing, content writing. Um, and yeah, just learning in and out of, uh, stuff for nonprofits, but then on the side, I started freelancing and I was like, I think I’m going to help other people do the same thing. And so I did content writing, uh, SEO development stuff, started writing for websites, mostly nonprofits, um, dabbled in and out over the years. I’ve been traveling a lot. And then, uh, lived a life, got married, had, you know, a lot of stuff. And then I got a job at a church, this was after grad school, got a job at a church as a communications director. And all that was great. I thought I wanted to go back into church ministry. I’d been out for a while. I ended up being like, I got to get out of this. It just wasn’t, it wasn’t for me. Um, nothing against that environment or that world for anybody, but, uh, I started freelancing on the side full-time and then, uh, or mostly full-time and kind of pivoted into the freelance email marketing. Got into that world. I got connected with y’all at The Copywriter Club. Um, I joined The Accelerator program. Because I was like, I’m going to take my business seriously. And it really helped me take off, which is great. So yeah, I really pivoted hard into copyright. I can tell you the, not the date exactly, but I can tell you exactly where I was when I was like, I’m going to go hard into copyrighting full time. Uh, my wife and I took a trip to Tulum. I think this was like in 2006, 2016, 2017, something like that. And I was sitting on a rooftop of this place we were staying in Tulum overlooking the jungle. And I was journaling. I was like, I really want to pursue copywriting full time and talk to my wife about it. And she was just like, sounds great. Go for it. So. No, we didn’t have kids. We had a dog. We didn’t have a mortgage at that time. So it wasn’t a big deal. And so there was just a lot of freedom to take risks. And I did it. And I mean, I’ve done well myself. So yeah, freelance. Y’all really helped me set me up for success with my freelance business, which I kind of stopped viewing as a freelance business and just as a business. Which is a great mental shift, by the way, for anybody listening. And then I ended up, an agency slid into my DMs one day. Grace Baldwin, who’s an alum of my Accelerator program and Copywriter Club stuff, she connected this person with me and said, Matt might be interested in this job. And so my DMs got on call with them. It was the end of 2021, I think. And it’s that time of year, it’s Q4, business slows down and it’s like, you kind of get bored. And I was kind of stressed about, you know, will my retainer clients renew for another year kind of thing.

Rob Marsh: Right.

Matt Snyder: And, uh, I was like, you know what, I’ll give it six months and see, I had, I had to like, what’s supposed to be a 15 minute call with this agency Homestead, uh, studios actually where I work now. And, uh, I was like, that 15 minute call turned into, um, an hour. And then I just really jived with the partners that I was on the call with and I was like, I’ll give it six months. And so we’re over three years later, I’m still there. So it worked out well, I went from being just an email copywriter, writing on you know, six, seven, eight accounts to now I’m the director of copy and oversee the entire copy department across the whole agency. So, uh, it’s, it’s a lot of fun to have a whole team, um, get to really help people grow, not just their craft and their skill, but grow as professionals with people. And it’s, it’s just so much fun. We work with a lot of cool brands and, uh, yeah, I like a lot, but anyway, that’s, that’s kind of how I became a copywriter and how I got to where I am.

Rob Marsh: Uh, So we’re definitely going to jump into the agency stuff. But I’d like to go back to, you know, when you went all in on copywriting is about the same time that, you know, you were taking your business more seriously and really figuring stuff out. How did you connect with your first clients? What did that look like? And what were you doing? Because you did okay. Like, I know there was, there was a, it took a little time to get moving. But once it started, like you seem to have some pretty good success.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, I think I’m trying to figure out how I got my first clients. My first client client when I was freelancing, like full time was an old college friend. He had he had a cybersecurity business and he needed a content writer. And so at that time, I’ll just say yes to everything. That was kind of like my ethos. Just say yes to everything. I really wanted to do email marketing exclusively, but I was like, I’ll just take anything that comes my way. And so I did. And he connected me with other people. It kind of snowballed from there. I realized that If you do really good work and you’re just dedicated to it and you communicate well, referrals just come in naturally. And so he referred some people to me and then I just headhunted a few others through connections. I was really involved with the nonprofit world, especially here in Atlanta. And so I had some connections there that got me involved. And I got a referral from another, it was just really like my pipeline at first was just word of mouth. Um, I didn’t do much cold pitching. In fact, I had really poor success with cold pitching. Um, and my best, my best, uh, MO was, was word of mouth. And so I ended up, uh, turning one of my former employers into a retainer client, which was a fantastic, uh, face. I highly recommend that Avenue if you can, if you can get away with it. Um, but yeah, I’d say word of mouth is kind of how I really got my pipeline filled up at first and just saying yes to everything. And then it was through that, that I realized email marketing was pretty much my shit life. That was what I was really good at. Um, I could go into accounts, audit them. It was just like second nature to me, figure out what people needed to do, um, to, to be profitable or successful or fundraise, whatever they need to do. Yeah. So. That’s kind of, I don’t know if that answers your question, but yeah.

Rob Marsh: No, that answers it perfectly. And then when you got to the agency, to Homestead Studios, you were introduced by a friend. So, you know, again, relationships networking helped facilitate that. But what did you do on that call with the partners? You said you really vibed with them. Like, what’s the secret of that?

Matt Snyder: Be yourself. I think this was what was interesting to me about that conversation is. He asked me in the dm. It was just on twitter when it was still twitter, I’m not active on that platform anymore, but it was Jacob. You can go online and figure out who he is. He’s awesome. He DMed me and was like, hey, are you interested in a full-time job with our agency? He said, you’ve been recommended to us by Grace. I can’t remember what it was exactly. And I just said, no, I’m not interested. But because I’m playing hard to get. Yeah, no, I was like, I’m not really that interested. But I said, I will always take a call and make a new connection. I was like, I’m happy to meet with you. And so he’s like, great, let’s do it. And so he’s like, just a 15-minute call. We’ll just take your break. And I was like, great. And so it was supposed to be just me and Jacob. It ended up being me, Jacob, and Kelly, who’s also a partner at the agency. And I didn’t know who she was from Adam. But it ended up just being… I had nothing to lose in that conversation. They came to me And that kind of really put the ball in my court, more than anything, and in my favor. And so I asked them questions about the agency. They asked me questions about my experience. I hadn’t sent them a portfolio or anything. I didn’t apply for anything. So he’s like, do you have any copy that we can just look at? And I was like, well, I know I did this website for this nonprofit agency. And so let me pull it up. So I pulled it up in Google and showed him everything. And I went to the website. I was like, this is what this looks like. And he’s like, they sat there on the call and read through some of the stuff. He’s like, great. And I said, you know, I just did this sales sequence for this client. And so I pulled it up, they read through it. I just did the sales page for this coach. So I pulled that up and I was like, it’s just copy. It’s not even been designed yet because it was an active client. And they read through it and he’s like, that’s great. You seem to know, you know, what you’re doing. I’m like, yeah, thanks. And then, um, he said, you know, we’ll get back in touch with you, you know, that kind of thing. And so they emailed me within the hour, uh, an offer letter and I was like, God, I don’t even know if I want to do this. And so that’s when I really had to think about it. But I think that the secret to that whole thing was not that I was playing hard to get, it was just that. I approached that whole thing as just like a networking call and I don’t know, I wasn’t desperate. There was that and I felt the freedom to just be 100% me and be really honest about my shortcomings and my mistakes and how I could add value maybe, but I was just like, this is kind of it. I feel like that helped stand on the call. It was also an interesting era for the agency. Homestead at that point had just started within the previous four months. Their retention side of the agency, they were mainly just acquisition-focused on unpaid social. And so they were trying to build out their email team. And so when I came on, it was me, one other copywriter, and two designers, and Jacob and Kelly. That was it. And so we were lean, and we were taking on clients left and right. It just, yeah, it was ripe for explosion. So it was just a good time. I don’t know. Dudos to Grace, always. I always thank her so much because it was such a good connection.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, Grace is an amazing human being, a great copywriter as well. Before we go any farther, though, let’s talk about the agency because people think different things when they think agency. You know, some people will have in mind, you know, Mad Men, you know, Ogilvy, you know, these big creative boards, presentations, you know, that kind of thing. You guys are a little different from that. Tell us, you know, what’s the work you do and what does working at your agency look like all day long?

Matt Snyder: Oh yeah, it’s a good question and yeah, a good distinction to make. I like to tell people, when friends ask about where I work and I say I work for a marketing agency, they think Mad Men and I think they think a big branding house or something where it’s like, Yeah. Madden NS. Yeah. You’re, you’re standing in a boardroom.

Rob Marsh: You look just like Jon Hamm. You’ve got the square jaw.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, exactly. And for us, it’s nothing like that. Like, you know, we’re, we’re a gross marketing agency. Like we specialize in acquisition and retention services for mostly D to C brands, like direct consumer brands. Um, some, some B to B stuff we’ve dabbled in, but D to C is our wheelhouse. And mostly it’s like brands that are doing anywhere from like one to a hundred million dollars in revenue a year. So it’s like, Uh, it’s kind of I mean, you know, there’s a big difference between a 1 million dollar brand and even a 10 million dollar brand or 20 million dollar brand so when you hit that 100 million rev mark, it’s What you’re doing for them is very different than what you would do for a 1 million dollar brand But anyway, it’s like brands like hexclad we work. These are on our website. So i’m not like giving up but like Thanks Cloud is one of our biggest accounts in the past. T-Rex, Grubly Farms, Veggie Casely, The Woobles, Dose, Pink Friday, Mail, which is a Mickey Minaj’s brand. We worked with a lot of really cool ones, a lot of good small brands too that deserve mentions. But we mainly just Do again, acquisition and retention. So paid social. So ads, landing pages, UGC type stuff, and then retention services. So mostly email and SMX. And we do a lot of content strategy across all those areas. A lot of consulting with brands. They might have… We add value to like, you should change this on your website. You should do that. We don’t do websites, but we give a lot of good pointers. I’m sorry, when I came on, I think we were maybe towing like 30, 40 people across the whole agency. We’re 100% remote, spread out across the US, North America. We have people in Europe, we have people in Asia, Southeast Asia. I mean, it’s like, we have people that travel all the time. So it’s like, Japan’s the hotspot this year. Everyone’s going to Japan this year for some reason.

Rob Marsh: I’m jealous. Japan is on my list. I’d love to go.

Matt Snyder: Same. I’m like, why, why would I not? But yeah, we’re, we’re over 70 employees now. Um, last year we went on a big growth spurt, um, which was challenging in its own right. But like, it’s, it’s been really good. We’ve built out some solid teams. Um, so pretty, pretty enjoyable, but like our goal, um, is not to be the biggest agency. It’s to be the best agency. And we had rather go a lot deeper, uh, with fewer clients and do higher quality work than just, you know, make a buck and do a bunch of rush jobs. Um, and I think that, that kind of focus and that goal, you know, it translates into our commitment to development, like really like hiring top notch employees, but like nurturing those people, nurturing their growth, um, and figuring out like, you know, what do you want to do? Where do you want to be in five, 10 years? Um, and I always, I always tell people, you know, when I’m hiring for my team, for the copy team, like I’m under no impression. that people are going to be at this agency for their entire career. Most people don’t go to an agency and be like, I want to work at an agency my whole life. Unless you’re at Ogilvy or one of those big places. But it’s like, what do you want to do after this? I want to make sure that when you come in here, you’re getting equipped for what you’re going to do after. So when you come into Homestead and you spend time here, you’re like, I really love who I worked with. I love the clients, like just had a wonderful experience. They prepare me for what came next and they were supportive the entire way. Um, that’s what I want to hear. So, um, anyway, we’re, yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re a strange agency in some ways, but like, I honestly, it’s the best job I’ve ever had. Um, it’s the best agency I’ve ever worked out cause it’s the only one I’ve ever worked out, but like, it’s, it definitely flies in the face of, uh, those agency rumors, people are like, they’re horrible, you know, and you’re overworked and underpaid and underappreciated and homes, we, but no, that’s not our MO at all. And I think a lot of our, our employees would attest to that. So.

Rob Marsh: That’s good. So you went from being a copywriter to now you’re the copy chief or you’re managing other copywriters. How did you do that?

Matt Snyder: I don’t know. No, I think, um, showing that I could do work number one. Um, you know, when I, so yeah, when I started, I was one of two copywriters that was just doing emails and I think I was on like six accounts and then, uh, we hit a rough spell. We had to, uh, let people go. And so then I was the only copywriter and I was writing for, I remember one, one month I was writing for 18 accounts. By the way, that’s not sustainable. Yeah, that’s nuts. That’s crazy. Yeah, everybody knew it. And so there was a lot of grace. Our CEO was writing copy and sending it to me for review. Everybody was pulling their weight. We had to do what we had to do. And then we finally were able to hire more people and grow. And so I think the longevity of my time being there and showing that I could crank out the copy went a long way. And it was a good copy. It wasn’t half-assed. But then that helped. And then as our team grew, I kind of became, I don’t want to say a shepherd of sorts. A mentor? A mentor, yeah. Our next copycat, she was solid. She is solid. And I will sing her praises all day long. But I didn’t really feel like… I felt like a co-worker to her, a lot of our senior team, because we’re all in the trenches at the same time. But then it got to the point where we needed to hire, we needed to have a lead copywriter to kind of manage, be the bridge between the leadership team and the copy team and just kind of managing their day-to-day. And so I think the reason I got promoted into that role was just because of my leadership background from previous life experiences and just my natural, not candor with the team, that’s the wrong word, rapport with the team, maybe. Um, that’s the word poppy right here. Um, yeah, my national report as a team, I think it really helped. And so that kind of evolved. And then over time, like our, as our team kept growing, like I got, uh, taps to help with recruiting and hiring, um, mainly just getting to sit on our interviews and have a say. Um, cause our, again, like our, our head of staff now she’s phenomenal and she could pick a diamond out of the rough. And so yeah, then last year, they’re like, hey, we’re growing and we need your help on the paid side of the agency. Because my focus was purely on the retention side. And so they promoted me up into the director role. And so they’re like, yeah, now everything that is copy related agency, it’s yours. Um, so that’s pretty crazy. Um, so that’s how I kind of got into that role. But again, I think it goes back to, um, that leadership experience. No, it’s more than just copy. Like, I think there’s a tendency in a lot of workplaces where it’s like, just because your best employee does the best job and can do X, Y, Z, um, doesn’t mean they’re actually going to be the best manager or leader for a team. And so I, in a lot of ways, like, My senior copywriters, uh, that I get to work with, uh, I think they’re better writers than I am, um, by a long shot. Um, and I, I mean, Joe Bailey, you know, I’ll name them like they’re fantastically talented, um, writers in. Can write me right circles around me. Um, but like, I do bring a certain leadership ability to the table that I think helps with the whole of the team. And so. Yeah, it’s just showing up every day, doing the work, being committed, not being a prude about it. I think a lot of it’s just added to that value of growing there.

Rob Marsh: So this interview is happening because I sent out an email a month and a half or two ago talking about a workshop that we were doing in the underground. And it was about how copywriters can find full-time or even part-time jobs working with in-house type clients. So, you know, businesses that might have a creative team, or maybe they don’t have a creative team, but they’re working with freelancers on a part-time or full-time basis. Agencies like the one that you’re in. And you responded back basically saying, I got a lot to say about this. We’re hiring a couple of copywriters right now, and I gotta tell you some stuff. And unfortunately, we weren’t able to get you on that same training that we did in the underground, but we’ve got you here now, and I can share some of the stuff that Jessica, my friend who did that interview, what she shared, but you’ve got thoughts about how you get hired as a copywriter in I mean, your agency specifically, but would also be applicable to all kinds of different businesses. So let’s talk about some of that. What are you seeing? What are you seeing that people are doing wrong? And maybe let’s start with wrong so we can end on a positive, you know, what should be doing it right. But what are you seeing that’s just you’re pulling your hair out over?

Matt Snyder: Oh man, um, that’s, that’s a great question.

Rob Marsh: And I know, I know we could, we can be kind of brutal here. Uh, I know you’re not picking on any one person, but there’s some stuff that’s going on that, that we really ought to call out.

Matt Snyder: Yeah. I mean, I knew we were going to talk about this, so I kind of wrote down some ideas, things to touch on. And I think before this call we were talking, I’m like, I mean, I, I could sound really mean, like, but there are, there are, There are people who apply for copywriting roles that have no business applying for a copywriting role. And it’s kind of maddening. To give some context, We just, we opened up a role on a Friday morning. I think it was, uh, our most recent one, which we’re about to put out an offer for, I believe. Um, so don’t apply, but put it on a Friday morning. By the end of the day, I had 98 applications, uh, in my queue. And then I was like, great, I’m going to go over those on, on Monday. Well, it was an okay weekend. So Tuesday I logged in, I like 170 some. And then by the end of the day, we had over 200. I think we ended up with like 206. Um, and I, I dm’d our HR guy. I was like, please take it down. Um, there’s no way I can keep up. I was like going through these applications left and right. And I’m like, I’ve just seen my queue get longer. I was like, there’s. Yeah, this is crazy. So know that when you apply for a job, especially in today’s market, that’s what I’m seeing as the hiring manager. And it’s like, I have a lot to go through. And so to stand out and say 206, a stack of 206 applications, I feel like I have something to say.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Well, and it’s not just your agency. I see this anytime I see a copywriter job on LinkedIn and you click through to see, you know, what are they looking for? Whatever. Almost always it’s like 180 people applied, you know, see where you stand or how you compare or whatever. So this isn’t just you guys. This is literally every copywriting job in the world right now.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, no, I have, I have a family member who’s appointed for jobs and she’s like, look, like the job market is awful right now. I’m like, no, it really is. I said, and I told her, I explained what just happened now. Like we just got tutored some applications. She goes, I, I believe it. She said, I feel like I’m just throwing my name out and saying a prayer. I’m like, I mean, that’s basically what you’re doing. Um, but so some context, like what I’m looking for when I hire a copywriter, um, at Homestead, um, you know, it’s, it’s not just somebody that can do the job and then clock out at the end of the day. Like I’m looking for a member of my team. Like if I wanted somebody to just write an email or an ad, I would hire a freelancer, but we kind of, we don’t try to hire freelancers. We try to hire full-time employees. Um, so we’re, and we’re not looking for somebody who just wants to work here for six months and then leave. We’re looking for somebody who wants to help build and help grow. And so I’m, I’m looking for, for someone with long-term potential because I know how things operate once they get into the agency. And it’s like, we really do focus on development. Um, not just hard skills, but soft skills and then life skills, um, and a lot of different ways. So it’s like, we’re, we’re 70 some people, but we’re really tight knit and we have a very unique culture or it’s just specific. I mean, it’s just good to us. And so when I’m hiring a new copywriter, I’m looking for someone that’s honestly self-aware and empathetic, that checks their ego at the door. One of the most important things is that they need to be teachable, curious folks, eager to grow, and that eagerness has to come through, like that desire to learn.

Rob Marsh: So let me stop you there, because as we go through this list, how do you know if somebody is eager to grow? It’s one thing to show up on a call and act humble, but then show up with an ego. So what are the filters that you’re using to even, and especially because you’re looking at resumes and cover letters, you’re not even talking to people at this point, right? So how do you filter that?

Matt Snyder: One of the biggest helps for me, and this is this is awful, and you’re listening and you do this. If it works for you, great, but it doesn’t work for getting my attention, that’s for sure. But people who send cold emails to blanket agency lists. um that’s a surefire way to get on my do not hire list um and it sounds awful but like number one those emails usually go to my spam but also when you’re spamming my team and they’re like hey why am i getting a message from this guy i might just ignore it like and they’re offensive because they’re trying to get your attention And so they just say really stupid things like, I’m going to throw a brick at your window. Okay, well, that no, like fired before you’re hired. Like it’s stuff like that. Like, um, I, I don’t want to categorize the type of person that typically sends those emails, but they’re usually male and they usually like to flaunt their successes. Um, and there, there’s no air of, uh, humility about what they write or how they present themselves. So that does come across in their copy pretty well. And I think we all know the brands that are really good about, um, you know, executing on that ethos and mentality. So to me, it really comes through in your copy, um, in the way you answer your application questions, especially, um, maybe in the way, like you answer some of the questions, like every single question I have in our application, I have for a reason, like they’re intentional. um, and there to reveal something. I think one of the most, the most telling ones for me is like we have, um, I think I wrote it down somewhere so I wouldn’t forget, but like, uh, why do you think you’d be a good fit for Homestead and for this role? Um, it says a lot about somebody if they can answer that well, just because it’s like, if you know enough about our agency and how we operate and how we function and the clients we serve, like you will answer that question with like a phenomenal, like finesse. Um, but if you just are applying for a job and you just hope that you’re going to get like an interview that comes through to, um, we just interviewed somebody who, uh, she was so hungry to like her, her application questions were very short and brief. We’re talking like one sentence answers to all of them, which doesn’t sound like an easy way to stand out, but they were. Oh, good. And I was like, this is exactly what I’m looking for. But one of the things she mentioned was. how eager she was to learn from our team specifically. And she mentioned people. And I’m like, that shows somebody who’s aware of what of our team and what’s happening. And they clearly follow us like, and I knew they followed us online. And so that that kind of stops it out. So it’s like, if if you can get yourself out of the way enough, the way you present yourself to like, show that, hey, I’m interested in helping you become the best version of you or whatever it is. It’s like copyrighted one on one, like, make sure you’re talking to your audience. And say what you know they want to hear or need to hear. And I don’t feel like enough copywriters approach job applications with that mentality. It’s like you’re writing a pitch, you’re writing a sales letter to me for you. use those same tactics that you would for a sales letter in your application. We had a girl, we also interviewed her. She was awesome. Her cover letter was written like an email. It was awesome because she knows how we write emails and that’s what we’re hiring for, that email copywriter position. And she gave us different concepts and different ideas with it. It was very creative and it stood out amongst the staff and I was like, this is awesome. I don’t know if I answered any of your question. I kind of went off on a rabbit trail, but, um, yeah, I think it comes, it comes off in your copy. If you’re, if you’re humble and you don’t have an ego and if you’re curious, like it, it’s just evident, um, across the pool of your portfolio and application.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, so obviously breaking through is huge here because, you know, if you’re one of 207 people and you’re just sending a resume in the typical, you know, I’m a match for the job because of X, Y, and Z, you know, I’ve looked forward to talking, whatever. You may be the greatest copywriter in the world, but it’s so easy to get lost in there. In some ways, that’s making you, as the copy chief, or the hiring manager, whoever, do the work of trying to figure out, is this person really as good as they say? Hearing it is, you know, the cover letter written as an email that your agency would send out. So they’re clearly aware of the work that you do. That stuff stands out. What if, uh, what if somebody sent you a box with a shoe in it that said, uh, I just want to get a shoe in the door or foot in the door, you know, that, which, which is, I think Luke Sullivan writes about this in, uh, Hey Whipple, that he had a closet full of shoes, uh, because of that. But does that stuff stand out too? Or like, what do you, when it comes to big ideas, what are you looking for?

Matt Snyder: I would, I would, that would be alarming to me because I want to know how they got my address. Uh, you know, we don’t, we don’t have a, like a headquarters, so it’s not, I’m never going to get a package that you send to me. Like when clients want to send us stuff, we give them a spreadsheet with our address on it, but they ask. But I think, yeah, stuff like that goes a long way. The people who stood out the most with this last round were people who had engaged with me regularly on LinkedIn. or via email previously, like had a bit of an interest in the role. We had people who had applied for a previous position last year. They applied again and sent me an email, hey, I applied for this again. And I was like, oh, I recognize you. So the DMs and the emails that are genuine and kind and not that templated, like, you know, I wish this email was a brick. Literally came through today, by the way. Uh, I think those, those stand out the most. And I, I personally, like, I recognize, I try to engage with every single person who, who emails me, who DMs me, who leaves a comment on my LinkedIn post or, you know, my newsletters or replies to my newsletter emails. Um, I try very diligently to respond to every single one. So if you’re engaging with me, you can better believe that I’m going to recognize your name and I’m going to recognize genuine engagement. And I try to reward that with my time. So I think that in today’s online world, that really does go a long way. And those same people who DM me and email me, they genuinely know what’s happening with our business. They know the clients we’re working with. They they make make mentions of it. Uh, they’re like, yeah, I saw this email that just went out for this brand I hope you guys are still working with them. That was awesome Uh stuff like that that really does carry weight it carries volume. So um, you you mentioned something about uh Kind of doing work beforehand and making sure that they’re a good fit. That was one of the tips I wrote down. I think if people pre-vet themselves for the positions, it saves me time and it saves them time.

Rob Marsh: What do you mean by that? Pre-vet. Pre-vet. Like, yeah, I’ve never written copy before, so maybe this isn’t a fit for me yet or… That could definitely be one of them.

Matt Snyder: I think, again, emailing or DMing or the hiring manager or even agency, like, I have questions about position before I apply. Who can I ask those questions to? I had several people do that, um, this last round. And there were a few that I was like, you’re just one person. Sue is But not like if anybody’s hiring and they need to senior copywriter, let me know because I will send you her her details but um, she was overqualified for the role. And I was like, look, you have an amazing portfolio. Like you have a great work history. You clearly know what you’re doing. You’re overqualified for the position we’re hiring for because we’re not hiring a senior writer. Uh, we’re not hiring a junior writer. We’re hiring a mid-level writer. And so if you are wanting to work with us, like we can’t pay you, um, what you’re worth. And so like, I, you know, later in the year or some other time, if we’re hiring a senior role, um, please say your name and hat, but it’s going to be evident. And so I think being able to ask those questions like, hey, before I buy, I just want to make sure like, what’s the salary band for this? Or like, what’s the expectations? Like, is this a mid-level role? Is this a senior role? What am I going to be writing and working on? That starts the conversation already. And so that helps you pre-vet yourself and know whether you want to put in the time to answer the application questions, piece together a portfolio, that kind of thing. I had a guy email me yesterday. He was like, Hey, I want to be a junior copywriter. I’ve admired your agency for a long time. We’ll love, like, I know you, who you are because of your work online. And, um, I know Homestead because of their influence and place in the DTC world. We’d love to work with you, but I want to work as a junior writer. Um, and I was like, well, he was a solid fit for a junior role. We’re not hiring for a junior writer. So like, you know, keep your eye on the website, like, uh, in our careers page. Like if we’re hiring, you need to throw your name in the hat. Um, it’s something that like goes a long way to prevent yourself, make sure that you’re going to be a good fit for the role. If you have questions, um, I had people apply that. It’s like, you’re a technical writer or like you should be writing case studies. Uh, you write long form content. These are short, quippy emails for e-com brands. You’re not going to like, do you pull that off really well? Great. In my experience, I’ve seen those kinds of writers struggle to adapt. And in this situation that we’re hiring now, we need somebody that can hit the ground running quickly. I don’t have time to like, train you how to write an e-mail. And yeah, clarity is king, brevity is key. So yeah, it’s the pre-vetting beforehand to make sure that you’re going to be a good fit for the position. It can go a long way.

Rob Marsh: What else should people be thinking through? So one of the things that came up in the training we did in the underground, Jessica suggested that every single role that you apply for, you should probably be rewriting your resume so that it is objectively aimed at what’s required for that position. And while that is a total pain in the butt, Uh, it’s, it goes a long way because, uh, you’re not seeing the generic stuff on your resume. You’re seeing things that apply directly to, you know, this particular position sucks if you’re doing this 30 or 40 times, but like if the key is to break through, you know, that kind of, or, or, you know, the generic, uh, cover letter is kind of the same thing. Um, so what else are you looking for?

Matt Snyder: Yeah, that’s definitely one of them. I look at resumes and when I’m looking, I don’t care if you send me a generic resume. I care about your cover letter and I care about your portfolio and I care how you answer the application questions. That’s how you’re going to get through to me. Your resume is great. It’s a great snapshot of your history. I always ask for a link to your LinkedIn. Um, again, I’m very active there, so, um, I will go to your LinkedIn and I’ll look at your work history. I’ll look at your posts. I’ll see what you’re talking about. I’ll see how you present yourself. So that, that matters to me. Your resume is great. It’s just a snapshot of your work history. I think some, some businesses, you know, it matters more than others in ours. I’m like, I like to know where you’ve been and what you’ve worked on. I think that’s important, but I want to see the work that you’ve produced. So your portfolio, um, carries more weight to me than your, Somebody looked at my resume, and I’ve worked at Blockbuster, I’ve worked at Ministries, I’ve worked at Brewster Coffee for five years. My work history is all over the map. It’s like someone’s like, you’re doing what you’re doing now? It’s like, yeah, I know, right? So I take your resume with a grain of salt. I take your portfolio and the rest of those things with a lot more weight. So when it comes to your application, again, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I put a lot of thought into the questions that I ask. They are all there for a reason. Ask about AI tools, preferred writing style, why you’d be a good fit for us, the latter demonstrating your awareness of the business and what we’re actively working on. um Writing style is kind of a tell too. I’ve had a lot of people who with journalism backgrounds that again are used to like long-form content writing They’re like apa style. I’m like, that’s not what i’m asking um, and it’s more than i’ve framed the question more than just preferred writing style, but it’s like That’s i’m interested. That’s the way you interpret it, but that’s not what I meant

Rob Marsh: That’s a really good strain or sifter for the right person if they answer that way.

Matt Snyder: It really is. It’s such a big tell. If they ask for your cover letter, a resume, and a portfolio and you don’t include it in your application, It’s an immediate no for me. Like, especially like, you’re applying for a copywriting role, you’re applying for a creative position to not include a creative portfolio demonstrating your ability. Like, man, you’re off the rocker. Like, I gotta see this. Like, I gotta see what you’re made of.

Rob Marsh: I recently saw a post on LinkedIn where they were so, they were that specific. It was for a direct response agency. And one of the things they said, you know, it’s like, you know, send in your cover letter, your resume or whatever. And then they even went and said, if you do not include a cover letter, you will not be considered, which like it should go without saying, but clearly people don’t follow instructions.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, I mean, that cover letter is your elevator pitch. So like, that cover letter could be the same thing you send to me via email to vet yourself out for the position. Like, I mean, it’s not, don’t make it difficult, but like, include it. It goes, like, it helps me interpret what I see before I see it. so i think that’s that’s huge i think um here’s a uh daniel drossel has like the anti cover letter um strategy course thing like that that would be worth looking into i don’t know anything about it but like apparently it gets results so um there you go shout out daniel um also great email lists to be subscribed to so that’s important. I check for errors. Um, especially if you are like, I’m a copywriter and you send me stuff that has grammatical errors or mistakes or spelling mistakes. Guys, put your best foot forward. Um, I think another thing is important. Don’t insult the hiring team or the business when you’re answering the questions. So it’s not funny. Give an example of that. Yeah, it’s not a place to air your grievances about the way an industry operates, for example, or that that question is being asked in the first place. I had somebody like, why are you wasting my time with this question? You should be asking this instead. And I was like, declined. It’s funny. Come on, man.

Rob Marsh: Have you had anybody reach out? It’s like, if you had me, your website wouldn’t be so bad or your response rates would be 10 times what they are. That comes back to what we were talking about, the lack of humility. But that seems really offensive. I mean, for me, it’s like, hey, I can see your website isn’t performing. How can you see that? You have no idea what my back end looks like. I get those all the time. Yeah, that’s okay.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, I’ve had those.

Rob Marsh: I’m not the only one.

Matt Snyder: I’ve had people put ultimatums in their application, like, I’ll send you my portfolio if you give me an interview. I was like, no. You’re not going to do that either, dude. I will say, guys tend to be the bigger offenders than women out there. So take that information as you will. But dudes, you need to straighten it up. But I think application, yeah, resumes are great. Cover letters are really important. Answering all those application questions is super important. Also, Don’t answer your application questions using AI. It is very obvious when you do. Last year we were hiring, we hired two roles, a junior role and a mid-level copywriter role. And I had both rounds. I had people answering, like, I was like, describe your experience with copywriting or just describe your preferred writing style. I can’t remember what it was exactly. I removed the question. But I had probably 15 or 20 applications that gave me the exact same response. Exact same response. Did it have the rocket emoji in it? No, no emoji. But I was like, can you just show some like effort at least um and change these a little bit and i had one person that did it was the same point just rewritten but same as everybody else like it’s an instant no for me um i want you to show that you can think critically and uh think like how you would think i don’t care how chat gbt would think or quad or deep seek or whatever it is like i don’t know how you’d think like One person in this last round, they answered the AI question like, yeah, I use AI tools. I used it for this. And this is why I used it. And this is how I used it. And this is how I changed it. And I’m like. That sounds awesome. Like it wasn’t, it wasn’t like copy paste. One person had copy and pasted chat. GBT said blank. I was like, wow, come on. Um, so, so don’t do that stuff. And then, um, I, I’ve noticed a lot of people too, like, you know, talking about boosting conversion of the websites and stuff. A lot of this, this is maybe a red flag for, for some freelancers, even pitching anybody for anything. Um boasting about the result that they can get client um, I would caution people about doing that to uh, hotly because it’s like I didn’t want to see receipts I want to see the client testimonials I want to see the LinkedIn recommendations. I want to see the screenshots from their Klaviyo accounts or MailChimp accounts or whatever it is or Shopify store. Like I want you to prove to me that your copy really did make that conversion. Um, otherwise I can’t, I have no reason to believe it. Um, cause I don’t know you from Adam. So bring your receipts. I had somebody was like, I did this for this person. I did this for that person. I did this for them. And I’m like, I don’t know if I should believe you, because you’re also the same type of person who sends blanket blasts to just lists you don’t know who’s on it. And so, yeah, I think be cautious of boasting your success. Please boast your success, but there’s a difference between confidence and cockiness, and one’s off-putting and the other’s not. And a good copywriter ought to be able to thread that needle. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think, I think it’s really important. We talk about portfolios. Um, cause I’ve mentioned this lots, but like, if your application doesn’t include a link to your portfolio, it’s a hard pass for me, brother. Um, I think something that a lot of copywriters that have applied this last round that overlooked is their portfolios were not easy to access or navigate. Um, there are websites that you are just for copy portfolios. So those are fine. They’re clunky. Some of them, I don’t even remember the names of them. Um, I don’t tip. I don’t even have a portfolio. Uh, but I would make one if I, if I was applying for a job, but like, make sure they’re easy to access and navigate. And then if you have to password protect it because of client NDAs or whatever, I totally understand that. But like, make sure you give your password with your application. And then also make sure that password is correct. So I had several people this last round who did not give me a password or they gave me an incorrect password. I was like, ah, detail. You overlooked that. Sure, it was a great portfolio, but you’re out. Um, and again, I had 206 applications to go through. I’m like, surely it was somebody else’s link to their portfolio. Um, I think, you know, Google docs work fine. I did Google, uh, folder drive, whatever. Um, that works fine. Most people come to me that way. Um, a notion database with tags, uh, has someone sent me a notion database. Um, Did that look good? I know it’s easy to put together. The tags were really helpful because I was able to be like, okay, emails, boom. Ads, cool. Landing pages, even better. And so it was like they knew what they were applying for. They curated that portfolio, it was clear. They knew they’d be writing ads, emails, landing pages, and text. And so that’s what they included in their portfolio to me. And I was like, this is money. They got an interview, by the way. um and then uh figma figma board was probably one of the best ones i saw recently uh they had just big old figma file it took forever to load but once it loaded i was like this person’s sick Uh, they did get an interview. Um, and they are awesome Canada, by the way. Um, but there are categories too, like ads, landing pages, emails, they did websites, they did, they did a sales pages. They had, I mean, they had, it was everything portfolio, but like, I could get to where I needed to go, um, to see what I needed to see. That was, that was great. But I think, yeah, if you’re putting together a portfolio, make sure it’s specific to the role you’re applying for. The number of people who, yeah, they want, they just want to work at Homestead or they just want an agency job or whatever it is. And they send me, like, long form content pieces. I’m like, I mean, number one, I don’t know if Claude or chat GBT wrote that, but also, you know, it’s just in a Google doc. Um, I want to see it on a website. I want to see it live. Um, and I want to see the kind of content that you’re going to be writing for me. So, uh, please include that stuff in your portfolio of whatever you’re applying for. Make sure that it’s there. If you don’t have. e-com ads or stuff like that. I accept spec work as long as you tell me that it’s spec work. I’ve had people apply to spec work and it’s top tier spec work. Even more, if you look at our portfolio on the website, like, oh, they wrote for Hexslide or they do emails for the Woobles or whoever it is. And then you spec work a piece of for that client. Like I can then see if you really have what it takes to write for us and our clients because I’m that voice. Um, so that’s, that’s huge. And even if you’re, um, you have content in your portfolio that matches the type of whatever you’ll be writing for that, that, uh, agency, um, it’s still to go a long way back. Hey, I did this for this brand. It’s pretty cool. I think too, I love to see designed content. Um, A lot of people send over just Google Docs with their copy. That’s fine. We write our copy in Google Docs. We send it to Design. Design drops it in Figma. We send clients the final product to review, copy and design. And so it’s like, If you have a design piece versus just a copy content piece, it’s kind of a hidden tell. I can tell that you can work with the design team to get your ideas from concepts to like reality. And so I prefer to see portfolios with fully designed pieces. I tend to favor those more. Do without what you will, audience. But I think that really says a lot. Yeah, we talked about curating content to the position. Yeah. I mean, those are just some, um, some thoughts with portfolios, but portfolios huge, uh, for a copyrighted role. Like if you don’t have one, don’t bother. Like just don’t bother applying.

Rob Marsh: That’s, yeah, that’s important. So a couple of things are slightly different kinds of questions. We’ve talked about junior level, mid-level and senior level copywriters. How do you guys break those into different bands? I know this differs a little bit from place to place or, you know, agency to agency, but there’s some pretty good break points, I think, for this. So what are you looking at for each level as far as experience and capabilities go?

Matt Snyder: Yeah, I think we have… So at Homestead, we spent a lot of time, our leadership team, developing role progressions. So if you enter Homestead as a junior copywriter, you know what your responsibilities are, you know what your… These are your main tasks, the main deliverables we want you to hit. These are your milestones, your growth opportunities. And so if you want to then become like, we have, we do junior, copy one, copy two, which those are mid-level, and then senior copywriter, lead copywriter, head of copy or direct of copy, whatever I do. And so if you want to move from the junior to copy one, you know what you have to do to get there. And yeah, it goes a little bit beyond your job description, but it’s like showing that initiative. Um, I tend to work with the team. So it’s like I make those kind of growth milestones, like your goals. So those are things we work on. Um, and you know how long you have to be in that position to qualify for a move up and what you have to do. So they, it kind of does that with each role as they, they progress at Homestead.

Rob Marsh: So if you’re, if you’re hiring for a junior copywriter, is that a pure beginner or what kind of experience are you looking for there?

Matt Snyder: Kind of a pure beginner. I’m looking for somebody that has copy chops. That’s what I like to say. They have the ability to write well and they also demonstrate a desire to learn, to be curious. We just interviewed somebody who That came off the screen. I mean like it was just so obvious like they wanted to learn and grow and they said I want to learn this, I want to learn that, I want to learn this, I want to be able to do this. And I was like okay, you know what you need to do, you know what you’re capable of now, like you know where you want to go, like that’s so helpful to me. Because I’m like I can kind of guide that and push you in the right direction. Um, it’s the people who come to me that are like, I know it all. I’m like, I want one. I’m going to hire you. Um, so a junior writer though, as somebody who’s hunger hungry, they’re teachable. They know they need to grow. Um, when we hire them as a junior writer, it’s like, you’re, you’re starting out with just emails and SNS. Like that’s it. And like the, the big piece for me there is like, I’m going to teach you not how to just write emails and SMS really, really well, our Homestead way, but I’m also going to teach you how to do content strategy. So you learn to master content strategy like that first year, writing emails and SMS, and you start dabbling into other areas like building out ads, learning how interpersonal connections, communicating well with clients, contributing to internal projects, you start to move up and expand your skills. As you move into copy one and copy two, your contributions kind of expand. So you’re not just writing emails and SMS and doing content strategy. You’re doing that and you’re helping the pay team with landing pages. And you might be contributing to ad copy. And so you do that. There’s a lot of other details at play, but like growth milestones. And then when you move into a senior role, it’s like you’re working obviously on bigger accounts. You’re working on fewer accounts, but with a lot more depth. And so these might not just be like a million-dollar brand a year in revenue. They’re like $50,000, $75,000, $100 million in revenue a year. They’re a big account. And so you have less clients on your plate so you can do even better work. That’s more focused. And you’re controlling the narrative across paid, landing pages, email. You’re helping the whole team with the whole funnel.

Rob Marsh: It sounds like you’re doing more strategy work at the highest level.

Matt Snyder: Yeah, yeah. We have one of our seniors, she’s very involved with audits and helping with pitching new business and she’s really good at deep diving. One of the things I’m really bullish on is having people identify Like, what do you want to learn? What do you want to be good at? Like, if there’s a specialty or a niche and the coffee space and, and our industry, especially that you want to get good at, we’re going to pour resources into cultivating those skills for you because they’re going to be a benefit to us as an agency. And so like, we, we have a team that’s just, we have some really good researchers. We have people that are really, really great with creative strategy and developing like Um, you know, customer persona and doing customer research and building a really well thought out customer avatar and, uh, buyer journeys. I mean, it’s somebody’s clients were like, this is just crazy what you guys are pulling off. It’s like, it’s because we taught, we help our team learn how to do this stuff so that they can add the value back to you. So it’s like when I, somebody comes into the junior, I’m looking for potential.

Rob Marsh: And at the mid-level then, are you looking for, obviously they’ve been doing some of this, but are you looking at time? Like I’ve been doing this for three years, or are you looking at like, now I have examples of landing pages in addition to the emails and maybe some other, you know, some of the stuff that your mid-level person is working on?

Matt Snyder: I’m looking at time. I’m looking at, yeah, the portfolio. Like if, if you’re at the mid level, like you’re going to be doing a lot of emails and a lot of landing pages. I need to know that you have a, not a broader understanding of the industry, e-commerce especially than just email. Um, and so like the people who I, who we’ve been interviewing, uh, diligently in the last week, it’s like they have a portfolio that supports that and they have experienced that support. So like, I, like we’re talking about two to three years experience, five to six, probably, probably two to three. Um, a junior, like if you have like a year of experience, I’ll, I’ll look at you. Um, but if, yeah, if you have like six months. Probably not a mid-level copywriter. Yeah, but a mid-level writer. Yeah. You’ve got like two or three years underneath your belt. Um, but yeah, one of the ones we’re talking about right now, she has had experience helping grow a B2C brand in all aspects. So she’s touched copy and all the areas of my. That is useful to me because you are going to be able to not just execute well on those deliverables. You can empathize with the client. You kind of know their pain points and where their focus is at certain periods of time. So I look at that stuff. And then for seniors, I personally prefer to promote from within. So I will hire a senior if it comes down to it. we have some really, really good riders, mid-level riders right now that deserve to be seniors. And so I would rather promote from within into a senior role than hire a senior. That makes sense.

Rob Marsh: Well, thanks, Matt, for sharing all of this. It feels like, you know, we’ve kind of opened up the secret door on hiring in some ways. Hopefully it’s enlightened a few people and we can improve, you know, if we’re applying for those kinds of in-house roles or even part-time roles. If people want to connect with you, I know you’re really big on connection and follow up, that kind of thing. Would you say LinkedIn is the best place?

Matt Snyder: LinkedIn is probably the best spot to connect with me. Matthew Snyder on LinkedIn. You can also have a newsletter. It’s free. It’s always going to be free. It’s called the Copy Minimalist, copyminimalist.com. I have like, you can sign up, you get access to my swipe file. I add to it every Friday. There’s hundreds of examples in there. You can also like on that same website, you can get a playbook I made about just some principles that I follow when I’m writing copy to keep it simple and short. So yeah, LinkedIn is the best place. You can also email me. My email is on LinkedIn. You can DM me on LinkedIn if you want to meet and have a call. I’m happy to do it. I’m always happy to connect. So yeah, just don’t be strangers. I’m an open book. I will share anything. So this is great. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks for being here. I appreciate everything you’ve shared. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me.

Rob Marsh: Thanks to Matt Snyder for sharing his thoughts about getting hired as a copywriter.
Did you notice that Matt mentioned many of his writers are better than he is? That’s the mark of an agency or a company that hires A players. They want to work with people who are better than they are. They want to bring in new people who add new skills and add to the collective skill set. And if you want to be part of a group like that, you need to bring new skills and new ideas and show off how you’re going to elevate that group too. Not just show up and write the thing that your boss hands you.

Matt was pretty brutal in his assessment of the people who should not be applying for copywriting jobs. And this is true of pitching for work as well. You have to be able to deliver. There are table stakes. Even at the entry level, you need to show that you can write, you understand grammar and spelling, and can be trusted to get those right. And if you’re not there yet, practice before you flood the inbox of a hiring manager or a client that you want to work with. The job market is tough right now, but if you follow what Matt shared, it will be a lot better for you than those who didn’t listen to this episode all the way through.

And if you want even more help related to finding a real job as a copywriter or a content writer, jump into The Copywriter Underground where there are additional resources to help you do that. And there are even more resources for freelance writers looking for high-paying clients, so everyone should visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to learn more now.

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