Jack Tales: Heroes, Villains, and Cultural Morality

In this episode, the hosts delve into the rich and complex history of the greater Appalachian cultural tradition in the United States. The discussion uncovers the stereotypes and realities of this cultural group, exploring Jack stories and horror tales rooted in Appalachian folklore that reveal values of cunning, anti-elitism, and underdog triumph. The episode also connects these stories to modern political movements and cultural phenomena, such as the MAGA movement and the character of Bugs Bunny. With insights into the tradition's violent past, gender dynamics, and unique traditions like 'Charivari,' the hosts provide a comprehensive look at how Appalachian culture continues to influence American society.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today's conversation is one I have been excitedly digging into. Yes, you have. The history of the greater Appalachian cultural tradition or the backwoods cultural tradition in the United States. This is the tradition that you and I hail from. Predominantly, like obviously everyone's a mix of a number of traditions.

They're also heavily from the Puritan tradition, and you're partially Jewish as well. But the, the main one is the greater Appalachian tradition. And the reason why it's important to understand this tradition. Is because this is the tradition that makes up the core of the MAGA movement in Trump's voter base.

And American sentiment shifting from the cavalier cultural tradition of the deep South to the greater Appalachian cultural tradition, shifting from an aristocratic to an anti aristocratic, anti elitist tradition represents a big change in American conservative politics. So there's a reason to understand it, but I'm gonna be exploring it with the lens.

Of its stereotype in eighties horror of like inbred, backwoods murderers who are gonna like hunt down people and, and murder them.

Speaker: She's just human. Why don't you go over there and talk to her? . Whatever you say, just smile and laugh. That shows confidence.

Speaker 2: You guys, uh, going camping.

Hey, hey,

Speaker: now

Malcolm Collins: because as you will see when we go into more about this tradition from their, from their own stories. Yeah, that may not have just been a negative stereotype. Oh

Simone Collins: oh boy.

Malcolm Collins: This reminds me where this first came up for me is I was having a laugh at the Mormons, because, you know, in Utah they had the highest rates of searches for polyamory on Google Trends.

And then after having a laugh at them, I was like, well, I should at least check my own cultural group's, negative stereotypes. You know, then that, that's certainly not gonna be a closet full of skeletons. And it's like. VOR and s and m and,

Sorry, I can't forget incest as well,

Malcolm Collins: and then, and all of the other like horrible. Yeah. Like

Simone Collins: it makes Paul, I mean, polyamory, if anything is just about social complication, hierarchy, bureaucracy, contracts.

Then they have like your culture. Our culture, which is just sa savagery. Animals savagery.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay. So. First I wanna go into Jack Stories as an a sort of cultural explanation. So this culture passes its traditions down through oral stories with the most common type of these stories being the Jack stories.

Although after this we're going to explore their horror stories as a way to understand them as well. You might be familiar with one Jack story, which is Jack in the Beanstalk. Yeah. But it comes from like a wider tradition of stories. In Jack stories there is generally a, a chain of events. A, a, a poor and lazy but otherwise quick witted boy stumbles upon either a giant or somebody with institutional power like a rich man or somebody who represents like government, like a sheriff.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: He then tricks. Otherwise torments that person and has great glee at doing this. He then tricks and murders that person. He then takes all their stuff. You know, you're, you're very aspirational. Malcolm right is a rich person. I mean, this is fundamentally what happens in Jack and the giant Beans stock.

It is, yeah. And you're not considering the IT person. It always kind sat

Simone Collins: weirdly with me. It's, it's one of those stories though. I think there's a lot of stories that you get told as a kid where you don't really get the impression that there's a good guy or a bad guy. And I think this concept of good guys and bad guys needing to be pervasive in stories is.

You know, unnecessary. Well then you,

Malcolm Collins: you're clearly misunderstanding the cultural context of, oh, because

Simone Collins: he's the good guy. He's the clear, good guy here.

Malcolm Collins: He's unmitigated the hero of this world. Goodness gracious. He's not just the hero. These stories are told to teach children values, to teach children how they are supposed to interact with a world.

No. You even commented on how the values of these stories you have heard me say. To our kids in passing. Absolutely.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, one of Malcolm's constant rules was, it's okay to punch anyone larger than you. You can never punch anyone who's weaker or smaller than you.

Malcolm Collins: And I, I told this to our kids, you know, like she knows this because like the kids are always allowed to punch their older siblings and me but they are not allowed to aggressively punch younger siblings. And this is just part of this cultural tradition, right? Jack is always up against a giant or a very wealthy person or a sheriff.

He represents small, diminutive, underdog ness. If I'm gonna go over some, so, so like I mentioned Jack in the giant beans stock, if you're not familiar with that story, he goes out he goes to a market and buys beans. What are magic beans with, with the cow that he's supposed to sell? Instead of doing something diligent with it.

So he's very intentionally, like not a diligent person.

Simone Collins: I think he's supposed to just sell the cow for money so the family could buy food. And what does he do? He buys magic beans.

Malcolm Collins: And the, and the mom gets mad and throws the beans in the yard and they drove a giant bean stock. And then Jack climbs up the bean stock and he finds a giant generally in the original story is a giant has done nothing wrong.

Jack minding his own business just living up in the sky. Jack then murders the giant by tricking him, and he takes the giants you know, hand that can lay golden eggs and

a few other items. And they live like wealthy people for the rest of their life.

You know, the, the, the value here is goof off. Trick people more powerful than you, outsiders. Take your money. Don't

Simone Collins: follow instructions. Disregard your mother's orders.

Malcolm Collins: If you go to Jack and the Giant's new Ground Jack from a poor man family seeks out to seek his fortune. He stumbled upon a Giant's new ground, cleared land, and is captured.

So essentially he finds a giant spar plan and is captured the, the giant plans to eat him, but Jack tricks him pretending to be stronger, squeezing water from a rock, actually a wet sponge in press, the giant spares Jack and gives him tasks. Jack outsmarts the giant in each, eventually stealing his treasure and killing him by luring him into a trap.

EGA pit or collapsing break jack, home rich , but the point I'm making, if, if you study these jack tales from the perspective of the villains in this Appalachian horror arc Jack is behaving in a way that aligns with these villains, right?

He is, I, I remember, I, I talked. To an AI about this. And it was like, well, you know, in, in Jack's not doing it maliciously. And I'm like, he may not, he's doing it maliciously, but from the Giant's

Simone Collins: perspective, it's pretty effing malicious. Pretty sure that trespassing and theft and murder are

Malcolm Collins: in the Yeah, in the one where he gets back at his stepmom, you know, he gives her things that like make her fart uncontrollably and he laughs at her.

So it's often like tormenting people and laughing at them, which is what you see in these scary horror arcs is the people from the woods are like, oh, there's these out of towners. That would, from their perspective, have institutional power over them.

Okay. Therefore, justifying often. If you, if you watch an arc like deliverance or something, like, they believed that they were slighted, that the out of towners thought they were better than them. And so then they use this as an excuse to say, well, now we can kill them and take their stuff. I mean, that's what always happens in the stories.

Right. You know, and, and torment them while doing it. Right. And this form of, of of, of sort of tormenting, like to get an idea of how violent this culture was historically, we've talked before a common practice in it was to file your nails down for a style of combat called rough and Tumble, where the goal was to maximally disfigure your opponent, ideally gouging out their eyeballs.

And this is like well documented that this was something that happened frequently to accounts of. Bar floors covered in eyeballs after one particularly big fight. You know, very, very violent. If you look at our president that came from this, you know, you're looking at like Andrew Jackson who famously would just threaten anyone to duals like over, over fairly trivial things.

Did he do

Simone Collins: that as president ever?

Malcolm Collins: I think he did that to the, I think the Dickinson guy, he did that to while president, but Charles Dickinson not to be Dickens with

Simone Collins: Charles Dickens,

Malcolm Collins: by the way. In his defense. In his defense, the other guy had called his wife a bigamist, which she technically was, but she didn't know.

Oh. Her other husband had not gotten their marriage properly and old before her marriage to Jackson. And so he chest hardened him to a jewel and shot him but the point being is this was a, a very violent cultural group to begin with and I think that Jack Tales are particularly interesting to study because they always start.

You know, with the, the hero being this kid in poverty who is otherwise lazy and wins through trickery and murder, and you don't see this, you see this in some other cultural traditions, but you're not gonna have like a chain of Jewish stories about like, how to be a good Jew. And the stories involve the Jew tricking and murdering somebody, right?

Like you don't, you don't see like a chain of. No, I, I just have, I haven't heard of like a train of like Italian stories with similar themes or something like that. This is pretty unique to this cultural region. And the stories have to be pretty heavily sanitized to be retold in, in the modern context.

If you were hearing this and you were wondering how is the jack archetype different from a trickster god from other religions? Because this is a common arc within cultures. It's the concept of a trickster deity or God or something like that. , He's different in many, many ways from any other trickster entity that exists.

, The most glaring is that he is always unmitigated the hero of the story and also. Cruel. , If, if you look at, , other trickster entities like a Loki or something like that, or a coyote, , they are morally ambiguous characters. They are not very, obviously the hero and the, the core hero of every narrative that they're in.

, It later we're going to point out that Bugs Bunny was likely inspired by the Jack archetype given where Tex Avery grew up. , And this gives you an example like Bugs Bunny is. Cruel and capricious, but also always unmitigated the hero. , The other thing that is when you contrast it with other archetypes, even Loki, who is a bad guy, was in his own framing, is rarely as mean, mean-spirited as the jack archetype.

, Where you have like Bugs Bunny is, is another good example of this. Loki is almost never. As actually malicious as Bugs Bunny is, , within his own stories. , The other thing about , the Jack archetype is he has no supernatural powers, which is uncommon for the trickster archetype. , He always is just purely operating off of what the sub genius would call slack.

For people of different cultural backgrounds. I actually think Bugs Bunny is a very easy way to understand Jack stories if you're like, how could a character boast be unmitigated the hero of a story, but also incredibly cruel, predominantly being cruel to others because he thinks it's hilarious. , Bugs Bunny will explain that to you.

Bugs Bunny is just , a one for one Jack archetype.

Malcolm Collins: But it gets more interesting than that because you also find a really interesting nature to the horror stories that come from this region. Or do you have any thoughts before I go further?

Simone Collins: I just feel so ambivalent about it because it's not exactly pro-social behavior. It wouldn't really, I, it's, I don't like will this in incredibly vitalistic societies to flourish when, you know, there's just this like free, it's free range on.

Or, sorry, what is it? Open, sorry. When it's open season on people who are seen as being more successful or resourced than you. Is that?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, these regions never did become very wealthy historically speaking. I mean, they, they, there, there was a reason for that you know a, a, a cultural reason, but they've been incredibly resistant to the urban monoculture, which is one reason why it's so important to study them.

And was in modern times, I mean, yes, they have a much higher murder rate than surrounding regions when you control for the presence of cities. But you know, things are basically, I. You know, copacetic enough that, that you don't see this kind of, you know, regular murdering happen anymore. The, the more aggressive practices, they don't rip out eyeballs anymore.

I've never done that personally. I was going over like wedding practices and one of the wedding practices that they had is, the women would take a cat and put it in the middle of like a quilt and they'd all yank on the corner of the kilt to launch the cat up in the air. And then whoever the cat ran by when trying to escape is who was gonna get married next.

Simone Collins: Oh.

Malcolm Collins: At least they didn't have to try to catch the cat. Yeah. Oh and so badly. They don't do that anymore, but they do still. I mentioned in the episode on dating culture within this region VA value mates based on, marshall prowess and ability to protect property. You know, if you go back to like David Bowie there was sorry, what, what am I thinking of?

He was this the congressman, right? I, we get Daniel Boone and he was talking about his wife, you know, and, and about, you know somebody was commenting on like how good she was and they're like, oh, she could protect the whole property. Was was a, with a rifle, you know.

She's shot. And, and that this has been a historic thing. It's not just in modern times, like girls with guns is like a thing for this culture or girls fighting is a thing for this culture. You know, you have the modern mud wrestling of this culture. But people even going back to ALB and Seed said that they women were uniquely valued for how rough and tumble they were and, and, and their, their level of.

Fortitude. So this is a, a big historic part of this culture as well as gender egalitarian relationships. Which is funny. A reporter was like, well, your relationship's uniquely gender egalitarian. Like, is that like not traditional? And I go, well, it's traditional for people where I'm from. You know, because if you are not, if you treat your wife too poorly, she'll just murder you.

You know, that's not something you do. But I wanted to hear, go into horror stories from this region. 'cause I think they also show.

Simone Collins: So wait, the hero stories sound like horror stories. What is the difference? Well, the difference is Jack's the good guy. Oh, okay. So it's a horror story If our protagonist loses

Malcolm Collins: No, it's, it is a horror.

You'll get the why. The horror stories are horror stories. Okay. Alright. We'll go into horror stories and you'll be like, oh, those are horror stories. You know, okay. So to go to the horror stories, we, we will start with the witch of booger hole. in Clay County, West Virginia. A young bride IRA moves to Booger Hole, a dense forest locals warn of Grandma Thorn, a witch blamed for missing animals.

IRA's skeptic. Husband dismisses it, but animals vanish and Ira hear scratching in the night. Her dog is found dead. Throat torn, . Confronting the witch IRA sees a crackling figure, vanish, some say IRA's husband dies and she f flees. Other is is just a, she's murdered,

the, the next is the Bell Witch. In Robert, I just have to note

Simone Collins: that like, what was it, booger Creek, that this was something that they pointed out in LB and seed about. Backwards naming conventions of areas that they would be named. Things like

Malcolm Collins: that were gross and

Simone Collins: like low culture. Yeah, like the s**t valley and like, you know, under the like all sorts of very lewd names for things well, can't say.

Well, people see

Malcolm Collins: this talked about how they see vulgarity as authenticating. Honesty. And, and sort of like that you're not attempting to fit in with the elite, which is why they don't care about like the grab him and the pussy thing or like the other vulgar things that Trump does because that's very much in their culture.

How you signal you know, I am was in the in group like, like, Hey, let's hang out. I'm not. I don't think I'm better than you. That is like the number one most important thing to this culture, and it's why Trump has done really well with him. And it's why old Republicans didn't do as well with him because they, they acted like they thought they were better than them and were like trying to enforce cultural norms on them.

And this group is very much, don't. Tell me what to do or how to live my life, you know? Mm-hmm. Above all else. They, they do have cultural pride and they do have a degree of cultural norm, but that norm is not pushed through shame or like, this is vulgar, don't do it, et cetera. So in Roberts account in Tennessee, the Bell family is fermented by a witch, possibly cat balls wrong by John.

Ball, starting with noises and animal disguises, it escalates into slapping, pinching and poisoning. John who dies it taunts his daughter Betsy, forcing her to break her engagement. The witch's Cave remains haunted. The witch of Polly Genty on Hawk's Nest Mountain, West Virginia.

Polly Genty is a rumored witch, lives with a demonic black cat. Blamed for crop failures, missing children. She's confronted by men who find her cabin empty. The cat's screeching fleeing. They hear her laughter and see her shadow. And then there's tpo, which is actually one I remember from my own childhood.

And I've read to our kids 'cause I got the book 'cause I remembered it and I wanted to get it back. And I remember reading the book, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So the guy just dies in the end. So a hunter shoots the tail off a strange creature and eats it at night. It scratches his cabin chanting.

Tpo. Tpo. I want my telepo. It returns to nightly first. It eats his dogs, by the way. Nightly, finally breaking in to rip him apart. Then you have raw head and bloody bones. This is in Tennessee and North Carolina. Raw head is a skinless bloody creature with a skull like head hiding in dark places.

A hunter in forbidden hollows hears raw head and bloody bones is coming and is chased his dog torn apart. This is linked to it, which is Kurt. You have. Well, this is a Cherokee one, so we won't go that one. The, the point being with all of these traditions is that you might notice something really interesting about them for local horror stories,

Simone Collins: okay.

Malcolm Collins: Which is, in none of them is the witch ever killed or faces any repercussions for her actions, right?

Simone Collins: The the malevolent thing remains at large. The

Malcolm Collins: malevolent thing wins in, in many ways, the victim of the story is made out to be the bad guy because they did something they were warned against. Like, don't f with that old woman.

Don't, you know show her a lack of respect, don't whatever. But they do. And then they are mercilessly. Like their, their kids are tortured. They're tortured. Their, their animals are killed. Like it is, it is bad. Okay. The second, which makes it really different, if you do a a cross-cultural analysis of these with other cultures is the villain feels much more lovecraftian in the way that they're just.

Is no escape from the, the quote unquote witch or tally poe or anything like that. Like the moment you are there, it is over and there is no limitations on their powers. They are in many ways. All powerful and totally evil. So if you contrast this with other traditions in European stories the witch one often dies at the end consider like Hanzel and ole or something like that, or is at least trackable, like baba Yaga is powerful, but Baba Yaga is.

Trackable as well. She is operating on rules. If you go to like East Asian witches and and stuff, they may win, but they have some restrictions like they have to hop or they're only interested in like one particular thing. Like they don't have a broad interest in just tormenting you, your animals and your children to death.

They're, they're more like specifically interested in some domain or with some sort of violation. You look at African culture and there's usually like. A hex or something you could do to get out of it. An example of, of like a counter to this is the death, Oman and token traditions. So in West Virginia and tr Kentucky, oman's like three knots.

White owls or banse like walls predict deaths. A Harlan County woman hears a whale and sees a shadow. Her husband dies in a mine collapse. Oh no. Rich ones failed to stop the omens. So there's, there's like within these traditions, the moment. You've seen the bad thing or you've done the bad thing, your fate is completely sealed, and blame is often shifted to the individual who's dying.

Much like, well, you just should have known not to mess with this person. Mm-hmm. Which is really fascinating to me. When I contrast this with other traditions I think one thing you also see with Jack Tails and these traditions is you can see how many tropes that arose in American media.

We're influenced by these traditions more than like European traditions and stuff like that. Oh, you think so? Yeah. So if you think about the classic Looney Tunes, like cartoon character your Bugs Bunny and stuff like that, bugs Bunny is clearly modeled after Jack, for example.

Simone Collins: You're right. Yeah, no, he, yeah, he's very irreverent, very.

He, he, he is got a lot of slack. If we were to use and mind the terms of the sub genius to describe him,

Malcolm Collins: these were written by Tex Avery. Where did Tex Avery grow up? But Dallas, Texas, which is part of, if you look at map to the regions where I grew up as well, part of the Greater Appalachian cultural region, even though it was not in the Appalachians, it was this culture that was, that was a don culture there.

So he would've grown up on these stories and then adopted a character like. You know Jack into a character like Bugs Bunny, who is lazy, but, but cunning and constantly tormenting people who he would see as coming after him, like hunters and stuff like that, right? Like people who enter his territory

If you grew up with the character of Bugs Bunny, I think the character of Jack and the parts of him where I'm like. Well, yes, the people who he murders often did something to warrant it, but he wouldn't care if they did something to warrant it. , You would understand this attitude if you grew up watching Bugs Bunny, bugs Bunny often torments people who are hunting him or something, but that isn't why he's tormenting them.

It's just because they're in his territory or around him. He would think nothing about tormenting somebody who had done nothing to him.

Malcolm Collins: often doing things to them.

That would kill them in any other circumstance. And also note the, the sort of environment of Bugs Bunny, how it, it mirrors the environment that these people would've had, you know, hunters, woods, rabbits, ducks, everything like that. Oh, the

Simone Collins: scenarios, I don't know. I mean, there are also opera houses, but I, I generally see you here and I mean, my theory is that this has to be a result of.

Clan based culture and trying to teach people that like, no, actually, if you go to those people who we say are gonna hurt you, you will die. You will, there's no document. It'll be your

Malcolm Collins: fault. Right. And, and this is also important with clan based culture, when you have things like blood feuds that can start, you know, you, you need somebody, and it's like, well, you shouldn't have talked with them.

We told you they'd kill you.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You know. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Because they, they really will. They hold, they hold grudges. They will kill you.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Which, which I think is, you know, you can see, and we make up stories even organically for our kids all the time that are meant to teach them things. You know, like, oh, you know, they believe that we have witches that live.

You know, at the swamp by our house. And I'm like, oh, that's why witches live in swamps. I don't want my kids going in the swamp.

Right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know I mean, I

Simone Collins: think a lot of that kind of overlaps with Grims fairytales where, you know, they were told in regions where if your kids go out at night, that they might actually be eaten by wolves.

You know, it made sense to warn them of monsters in, in the forest and stuff because there was stuff out there that would legit kill you. So we still do that with our own kids. We're like, yeah, there's monsters outside at night.

Malcolm Collins: If you look at eighties horror movies or, or older horror genres in the United States, and you look at the ways that they are structured the other interesting thing that comes from this total tradition is the, the villain that there is absolutely no way to escape that you will eventually die which is not seen in, in many other traditions.

If it was, if we were basing these off of like European witches and stuff like that. You'd have much more of a, well, they're scary, but you can trick them. Like, here's what you do. And we do have some horror movies that are structured that way. But the horror movies that are influenced by this tradition are the ones where, no, you really, like, don't mess with it.

Don't begin to mess with it. If you do, it's over for you. Right.

Which is, it's pretty interesting to see that in influence our culture. So I thought, I thought that was, that was pretty cool.

The other thing I'd note about these stories is they are much like, more existentially scary than even the raw unedited for kids versions of the European stories where it was like baba yaga, you'll have like a house with chicken legs and like a woman who get conceptually is like cannibalistic or something, but otherwise it's an old woman.

Whereas with, with like bloody bones, you have a person without skin coming to get you. Uh, that's just way. More horrific.

Malcolm Collins: Now if, if you look at, yeah, I was looking at other traditions like Hanzel and Gretel, comparing it to that baba yaa where, where, you know, you can trick them.

Even the witch in, in in Snow White, you know defeatable, right? Like not, not like these characters. I feel like that

Simone Collins: in Snow White it gets so muddled. That, yeah, there's a lot of the classic stories kind of end with this deis ex Mina of. Some hero doing the thing. Which I don't know. Those are uninspired and these are more interesting in that the villains are just dangerous things that exist in the world and you should know about them.

I, I kind of like it more. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, I remember the telly post story stuck with me so much as a kid because it felt so different from other stories I had heard as a kid. Yeah. You know, it starts with the guy's dogs being killed, which I don't remember seeing in any other illustrated children's book that had ever been read to me.

Like that as a kid I remember was quite shocking. I was like. Wait, his dog dies. And then I hadn't even remembered this until I realized as an adult and I was like, oh, and he dies. It's very much framed as a, the world is closing in on this guy. The moment he makes a mistake, everything's over from that point on.

And, and that was really shocking to me as a children's story. But I think it, it's an important value and I can see why a culture like this would, would teach it. Now we're gonna talk about some other fun traditions from this region. One was wedding spoons where oh, yes, the guys couldn't afford rings.

They would carve these really beautiful spoons to show off their carpentry skills. This

Simone Collins: reminds me of the human version of what Emperor penguins do. It's emperor penguins, right, where they find a really, really pretty rock and they work really hard to get it, and then they give it to their. Chosen mate, and this, this idea of like working really hard to make a nice spoon is so romantic.

And I looked up the spoons and they're very impressive. I would be impressed. You're like,

Malcolm Collins: dang,

Simone Collins: that's a nice

Malcolm Collins: spoon.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I don't know how I would go about Whitt that that would take for, and they're nice and polished, beautiful intricate shapes, personalized to in many cases I imagine the aesthetics and interests and values of the recipient.

Just beautiful. Yeah. Really nice. I wonder if they were probably never used but. It'd be so cute if women, you know, at a fancy dinner would just pull it out and, you know, my spoon. I don't know if this was still in the age when you had to bring your own utensils to everything. I think it

Malcolm Collins: was this, this would've been a, I mean, you know, these people didn't have much.

A spoon was like a major thing to have in this period. In other, yeah. And I wonder why

Simone Collins: they didn't do knives instead, because I feel like that would be the, the spoons do look a little bit delicate and precious. And a good knife would, you know, probably. Last longer, but yes, whatever. I mean

Malcolm Collins: as, as, as an understanding of like being from this tradition when I met Simone one of the first things she did, like when, when courting me was showing me her knife collection you know, that is from another culture that would be seen as incredibly.

Dense for a woman to do, trying to get a guy to like her dent. Look at all sides. I have. Well, you know, the, these, these are not, not like cooking nights, so they're like big collection of like, oh, a hu like pink and, and stuff like that. Hunting nights, like you were clearly like, these are girly, but what's conveyed by that, they're all pink.

But I am in a Marshall tradition, right? Like I, I am from a And you told me you remember, like growing up, your, your family would always say, well, Smiths do this and Smiths do that. Yeah. Smiths have

Simone Collins: guns. Smiths have knives. Like that was what we. That's what, that is what distinguished us. It wasn't some code of honor or anything.

It was, but I also, my

Malcolm Collins: family talking about this a lot growing up is they always say, well, Collins do this and Collins do that. I love that. I think this, this is a normal thing for clan based cultures. I think if you're from a non clan based culture, what you would say is, Jews do this, or Jews do that, or Mormons do this, or Mormons do that.

Mm-hmm. But the central unit of identity is seen as the extended family network. Yeah. Which is why your, your cultural values are framed to along the lines of. Well, you're a Collin, so you do X or you're a Smith, so you do X. Like, that's feasible. I think it's more

Simone Collins: powerful because it, it creates a greater sense of personal responsibility.

Mm-hmm. If I as a Mormon were to behave irresponsibly, I mean, I know that Mormons who do so feel immense amounts of shame if they're really devout, but I still feel like, you know, maybe no one will notice, you know, I'm just a drop in the giant Mormon bucket. Whereas, you know, if you are letting your family down, the foundations will crack and you know it yeah.

It can't do

Malcolm Collins: without your health. And another episode we used to actually like our parents. You should check it out. It's a great episode. 'cause I go over my great-great-great grandfather's like memoirs and everything. And at the end of it, he lists everyone he knows who's dissented from our family.

And then points out that there is not a degree of criminality among them. You know, it's very excited that they. They're not criminals. They're, they're honest, hardworking men. Which is funny because you see a, a, a, a divergence from, from this type of, of culture. But if you look even like the generation before him when they were doing the anti confederates, because they organized a bunch of anti confederate factions called the Jayhawks in Texas.

And, if you even look at the story of how he saved the, and the other Jay Hawks who were in the Confederate prison, is that he went to the prison and he gave them all the guards all liquor and like, got them dancing and partying. And he, he did a jig that was so transfixing that was, it was seen as like a Scottish jig that they didn't notice while all the prisoners were being freed.

Simone Collins: This sort of, it's very jack tails. That's an extremely jack tails time kind of scenario. Yes,

Malcolm Collins: it's

Simone Collins: an extreme, like I feel like someone who grew up reading the Jack Tails would think that's a viable solution. I'll get them drunk and do a jig. I'll get them drunk and do a jig and then we'll free

Malcolm Collins: everyone.

Simone Collins: I don't, I don't think he would've come up with that had he not been raised in that tradition.

Malcolm Collins: No. He, I, very few other people would've thought, okay, I, I, I see the camp where, where all my friends are being held. What do I do? Do I go at night or do I. Pirates in the Caribbean style, walk out with like booze in my hands and be like, that's funny.

Oh my goodness. Great. That's very much like what Bugs Bunny would do, right? Like yeah. It, it's very much like I'm gonna be ma it's very much what you or I would do. You know, we've been talking recently where we applied for the Survival and Flourishing Fund for another grant from them. And we're going to try to fix AI meme layer threats by building sort of one to, to supersede them within the AI meme layer.

Like I, I, I argued we'll build our own SGO to fight their sgo. And of course a normal AI safety person is gonna be like, wait, you can't just build the big evil AI to protect us from the big evil ai that's the. An insanely bold thing to do. Like you should try, let's just try to limit the other ai.

And it's like, no, you can't do that. You can't chain, you know, char Gothic on because Char goon is, is always going to win. At the end of the day, humans aren't meant to beat him. Yes. You're like,

Simone Collins: let's just create one first and hope that we can make it more aligned. And probably if they do give you any funding, it will be because.

They know that if you don't get funding won't safety Yeah. You won't do any safety protocols because it's true. You won't do any safety protocols if don't get funding. I don't see the

Malcolm Collins: point. We're working with short timelines here, people. But then the, the other I don't mean this as a threat, it's just like what I see as practical and what I have the money.

Well, and also, yeah,

Simone Collins: like we literally don't have the money for it. So we, we can't do it without the funding, but we're gonna do it anyway.

Malcolm Collins: If you look at even the way that I have approached Tism in, in media and stuff like this, it has been very Jack Taily. It has been very you know, sort of the, the giant, all the media establishments just baiting them into like making a fool of themselves and helping further spread the message and further grow the movement.

And they, they fall on their faces and they get back up and they get angrier and they. They run again and they're tricked again. And I'm just here having a laugh at the whole situation. The, the entire way that we have worked on this has been very much like you would see in one of these stories.

Mm-hmm. Which I think is interesting and shows, you know, how tied to your cultural heritage you are. Mm-hmm. But also I think where people may underestimate. People from sort of these cultural groups because they otherwise look nerdy they don't see that this is a cultural group that is one bred for an extremely high amount of aggression.

And, and, and two may feel that like me, for example, personally, I got in fist fights. Constantly as a kid.

coming from this cultural background, I would go so far as to say it feels weird to me when I meet adult males who have never gotten into a fist fight. , That seems weirder to me than never having had sex.

Malcolm Collins: And if you look at, at other people from clam based culture is a great example here that people would look at and say, oh, Elon is a nerdy looking guy. Like, look. Yeah. And people make fun

Simone Collins: of Elon Musk for like jumping up and down on the stage in Butler, Pennsylvania during the Trump campaign, whereas like there.

There were instances earlier in his career where he would literally duke it out with his brother in like a, you know, a nondescript Silicon Valley office to the point where his brother would be hospitalized just over like technical development, disagreements, you know, not, not huge grievances, just like, Hey, this is how they hash it out.

And that's, I think it's because people.

Malcolm Collins: Online are very bad at determining performative like aggressive cultures Yeah. Versus like actually aggressive cultures. Well, and I think

Simone Collins: they're also like mistaking the, the Andrew Tate in. The chalk tails is the giant. He's the one who gets, who gets

Malcolm Collins: killed.

Well, no, that, that's also true. By making yourself look overly threatening within these regions, you are planting a target on your back. Yeah, 100% would've been a reason to look. Nerdy and unassuming within these regions, which is why a lot of the famous people that people know from these regions, whether it is myself or it is somebody like JD Vance look pretty like what people would clock as nerdy.

Mm-hmm. Instead of what people would clock as aggressive. And it reminds me of like that. There's a song I showed Simone recently where I was like, oh my God, this character looks like they were drawn to look exactly like the way I used to dress with the round glasses and the red vest and the tie and the, the black slacks.

And he is just as murdery and crazy as well. But I, I, I, because I'm an adult, you know, I am able to. Suppress my impulses now. Like I don't get in random fights with people anymore or anything like that. And I think that that's what we're, is expected of us as adults.

Whereas I think people that were born without these instincts.

And you see, this was like Andrew Tate where I've pointed out like he clearly is from a very low testosterone like birth environment.

If you look at his facial structure. Whereas my facial structure would be seen as like an exaggerated testosterone like developmental environment.

I should clarify here that I actually think from my perspective, this makes what Andrew Tate has accomplished kind of cooler rather than less cool. It's kind of like Lewis from B Stars, you know, being born a prey species, but. Attempting to turn yourself into something that looks and acts and lives more like a predator species.

Um, the fact that he was born and, and developed in such an extreme because he doesn't just look like low testosterone. He looks like an exaggerated example of low testosterone environment, and yet become what he has become. I actually see as one of the cooler aspects about him.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, people don't know to cue for that.

They're like, oh, that's also going to affect. Like their brain and the way that they approach problems.

But it's not just the biological differences that give you a different mental framing of reality. It's also the cultural differences.

Malcolm Collins: And, and this is why I think, you know, you need a degree of cultural diversity because the ideas that I'm able to come up with for resolving ideas like AI safety are going to be very different than the ideas.

Somebody who is acculturated within like a Jewish or Catholic cultural context is going to come to

Simone Collins: well. And I also think it, it highlights this misunderstanding of what traditional masculinity is looking at. Masculinity by only a few traditional respects, like this concept of soy face that emerged in like 20 17, 20 18, like soy boys, like, which is really just associated with like looking more expressive or not showing classical masculine entry.

It's like normally when I see people refer to someone having soy face, it's 'cause they're expressive or they're laughing or they're smiling. And, and they're looking like they have a sort of ironic joke face and. You, you don't, you're not accused of having a soy face or being a soy boy if, like, you look angry and serious.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no. So this actually came from me using AI because people have said, oh, Malcolm, you look so soy. And I've been very confused by this because like a, like by science, I, I look like somebody who was overexposed to testosterone. Like, that's my facial structure. So I was like, okay. What could they be thinking?

L soy about me. And so I actually went TOIs to see Ifis could figure out w what would make them think that Malcolm L. Soy. Oh really? You know, aren't soy, like there's a lot of people with glasses. A simple like. Button down shirt isn't particularly soy. No. It's a very nondescript item. No. And, and so I, I, I kept getting AI trying to analyze and what it eventually came to is, I think it's right, it is that I'm not angry.

Like, like displaying. Yeah. You either have to look

Simone Collins: expressionless or angry and then you count as masculine. Whereas like, most of the most, I would say masculinely acting people at least until they get self-conscious laugh a lot. Are very expressive.

Malcolm Collins: The point being here is people are confusing the fact that I am excited for life and happy and laugh a ton with, with a lack of masculinity because within the cultures that they are from, that is genuinely seen as a lack of masculinity.

But what's interesting is within this culture that, that, that, you know, has the jack tails, it's like their core structure of what masculinity is you. That is not a lack of masculinity. That is actually the very height of what you are supposed to be as a man. Yeah. Which is irreverent and not letting things get to you.

And that's,

Simone Collins: that's the what really gets me about things like testosterone replacement therapy, which you see like people, like figures like Jeff Bezos go through where he has this transformation where suddenly he's like super jacked and he never smiles anymore. Is, is that a lot of men. Are turning to testosterone replacement therapy, like it went Forex among men who are between 18 and 45 from 2003 to 2013.

And then there was another 50% increase from 2013 to 2023. And this comes from a place of insecurity, which is inherently feminine. Like if you are on testosterone or replacement therapy, you are a preening woman. I mean, now there obviously are like some health conditions where it's like, oh, this is, this is really a problem.

Yeah, but I,

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I've talked about, you know this in the past, but it is worth noting that, that this strategy, you could be like, well, that's a niche cultural marriage strategy. Certainly it doesn't work on like the average woman or, or young woman. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, bro, like young women are not thirsting after like Russell Crow.

They're, they're thirsty after people like like Benjamin Benedict

Simone Collins: Cumberbatch what the guy who plays Loki. The, the guy

Malcolm Collins: who plays the, the Pirates of the Caribbean guy, what's his name? I, yeah,

Simone Collins: the there's some, the wrestler, the Whistler, the what's the, the Whistler? No, the, the thing from Dr.

The Whistler. You're the

Malcolm Collins: ler. Sexy boys. Like one. Yeah. Like, yeah.

Simone Collins: Lanky, pale, expressive. This,

Malcolm Collins: this is actually a very common, like ideal profile for a lot of women. Yeah. It, but I think men don't recognize it because they've keyed to cultural cues on the internet and they don't realize that what the ideal man is is diversely expressed across cultures.

Yeah. And they may not be understanding that even within their own culture. 'cause a lot of people have lost touch with like American cultural roots. Yeah. And they don't know their jack stories. You know, they don't know the this stuff. So they, they think, oh you know. You know, masculine isn't the guy who subverts and tricks the more powerful person and then takes their stuff and murders it.

You could take out the murder part, but, but, you know, subverts and tricks, the more powerful player while having a good time masculine. It's the guy who's like a gruff the whole time. Right. You know another fun tradition I found while, while doing this research, it's called the Chari. And so when couples get married to prevent them from like, just to mess with them, like trolling, trolling is obviously big within this culture.

Yeah. The wedding guests would all go around their house where like their wedding bed would be and, and make a lot of loud noises and, and like shoot guns in the air and like sing and dance to make it really hard for them to have sex without, you know. Yeah, like, like yelling stuff at them, and I, I, I think that that's like exactly the trolling you'd expect from this.

Right. I wonder if this is

Simone Collins: produced like a, a slight. Tendency of people who are not turned off by loud noises. To be among like Appalachian subgroups, the ones who play really loud music when having sex because they, they couldn't produce offspring. Yeah. They're

Malcolm Collins: like, whatever, get away. I don't care.

Yeah. Anyways, but, but very interesting to study because if you're from a different cultural group, this will be weird to you. Like, yeah, you'll think it's

Simone Collins: so, yeah, and I mean, you, you get comments like this all the time, people being like, oh, Malcolm's this or that. And like one, I mean, obviously it doesn't get to you 'cause you've changed nothing.

Which also I think it points to your complete lack of insecurity about this. You know that they're wrong and that you're right for you at least. And maybe they're right for them, but. It's just this is clearly a point of extreme confusion for a non-trivial portion of your viewers, and so I'm glad that you're bringing it to light.

Malcolm Collins: Yes, yes. This is just a cultural difference in masculine ideals and me leaning into my own cultural heritage as I suggest other people to adopt a culture to lean into, or. You know, learn more about your culture and lean into what makes them different, because it likely co-evolved with your biology. Yeah, yeah.

Like when I hear about all this ultra aggression stuff within this, this, this region, I'm like, oh yeah, like that. That definitely co-evolved with like my background and it's something that, as I grew up, I learned to suppress. But I, I may not need that. I might not need this like, irreverent figure.

There, there may be a reason that this culture also did not lean into stereotypes of aggression for aggression's sake, because the people who did all died. I mean, if you're in a culture where. You know, honor killings are really normalized for, for slights. If you're in a culture where, you know, people sharpen their fingernails so they can gouge out your eyes and where duals have it at the drop of a hat you know, maybe don't be growly and angry for angry sake, or you're not gonna have a high chance of, of, of surviving.

But do be in a, like, do have that within you, but have it within you in a way that they. Are not gonna see or recognize like right off the bat, right? Like, it, it, it shouldn't what's the word I'm looking for here? You, you know, be seen as like an offense to them, or like, you think you're better than them.

I mean, this is actually very key to the way I interact with people as well. This like, really like happy, I immediate like, Hey, how are you going? Great to meet you. You know, et cetera. Yeah. Which is a, a way of meeting people and engaging with people, which above all else is based around. Ensuring that they know that I don't think I'm better than them.

Because that's like the core thing that you need to stay alive or appeal to politically, this cultural region.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Survival mechanism.

Malcolm Collins: Well, and it's why the Democrats can't, because they do think they're better than them. They're like, well, we're educated and you're a bunch of, you know, racist hillbillies that we just need to learn to code or something like that, you know?

Yeah.

Simone Collins: And what they're really just doing is painting a giant target on their back. Oh. So you're elite and you think you're better than me. Okay. Open season. Thanks for letting me know. Wonderful. Yeah. Wonderful. This is, this is so great. Yeah. New target. Love

Malcolm Collins: deim. Always fun to talk culture.

And you

Simone Collins: haven't watched it enough times because you are, I

Malcolm Collins: hate that movie. So insufficiently. It's,

Simone Collins: come on, man. The Jean Paul Laier. Oh my God. The, the science,

Malcolm Collins: the, they're like clothings. It's, it's, listen,

Simone Collins: triple hard sci is great. Not all sci-fi has to be hard sci-fi, you know, like, give it a rest, Malcolm.

Malcolm Collins: It doesn't have tarded sci-fi. Okay. Don't be tarded. It's the best depiction

Simone Collins: of what, what consumer spaceships as cruise ships are gonna be like. 'cause it's the only depiction. And it's I mean, you know, it introduces so many concepts that I think we really need, like sedation travel. It's, it's unfair that you don't like that movie.

Like, oh, the costumes. The costumes, the. You have terrible taste.

Malcolm Collins: You have terrible taste. But I'm happy that you're gonna learn to make sushi. Like I have been drooling over that concept all day.

Simone Collins: Just what? Tuna sushi?

Malcolm Collins: Well, no. So what we're gonna get is some tuna and we're gonna need imitation crab.

Oh yeah. 'cause real crab gross. Well, no imitation crab is what's used in moed sushi. Mm-hmm. And you know, if you're, if you're doing like, typical like rolls, right? You know, what is

Simone Collins: imitation crab made out of?

Malcolm Collins: Is it a fish product or is it a I think it's a fish product. Actually, I should write a list of all the things I'm, I'm gonna need.

We're gonna need wasabi, we're gonna need ginger. We're gonna need,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Eel sauce. It'd be cool if we could do some eel ones. If you don't wanna work with eel, we can just do tuna. No, I

Simone Collins: mean, I've, you know, I've eaten a lot of unagi. I just,

I don't know how good I would be at preparing it. Probably fine. Just follow the instructions. What's so hard so far?

Malcolm Collins: You've been great at everything, Simone. It's hard.

Simone Collins: Just follow the instructions, say do what perplexity tells you to and it's fine. So good for recipes, love perplexity for recipes. Changed everything

Speaker 7: That's right.

Speaker 6: Make us.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Keep going friends. Keep going. This is our adventure, I think down

Speaker 9: there. A jungle and it got bears.

Speaker 10: Bears. Well, we better be very careful than red Octavian.

Speaker 9: Yeah.

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