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15min chapter
Alison Wood Brooks: Cracking the Conversation Code
Guy Kawasaki's Remarkable People
Navigating Conversations: Money, Honesty, and Tact
This chapter explores the multifaceted dynamics of engaging in conversations, particularly around sensitive topics like finances and personal beliefs. It highlights the importance of question formulation, the balance between honesty and kindness, and strategies for managing opposing viewpoints. Through anecdotes and research insights, the chapter emphasizes fostering constructive dialogue while being respectful and engaging.
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Episode notes
Speaker 2
So how much do you make as a Harvard Business School professor? That's
Speaker 1
such a good question. I love it. I'll tell you what, book deals help, book deals help you earn a lot more. And I think that's why a lot of professors are writing these trade books.
Speaker 2
I need a number here. I'm
Speaker 1
still not tenured. I'm a junior faculty member. So I actually don't know what my tenured faculty colleagues make. I'm
Speaker 2
asking you, not your tenured faculty colleagues. You think you can just avoid my sensitive questions.
Speaker 1
Guy, can I be real with you? My husband is a financial advisor and I don't even know how much money
Speaker 2
I make. The
Speaker 1
money flows to my financial advisor.
Speaker 2
I learned from your book that you have to learn when to switch topics.
Speaker 1
I actually want to answer your question. I think the sincere answer to your question is more than enough. Speaking
Speaker 2
of tactics, so do you think it's better to switch too many topics or what's worse, too fast or too slow switching? We
Speaker 1
know this. I know this answer, not just based on my personal hunches or preferences. Of course, I love rapid topic switching. I think because I have an ADHD sort of inattentive brain. I think you do too. But we also actually have data on this. This is a huge data set that was collected from BetterUp, which it's just amazing conversations. After their conversations, like hundreds of thousands of conversations, they ask people, did you cover the right amount of topics? And most people say, yeah, I think we covered about the right amount of topics. But of all the people who said, no, we did not cover the right amount of topics, people are much more likely to say that they covered too few than too many. So the most common mistake is moving too slowly through topics. And we see that when we manipulate the speed with which people move from one thing to the next. So we've run experiments where we tell people, move faster. As soon as things start to lag, we want you to move to something else. And those conversations are much more enjoyable.
Speaker 2
Okay. So now let me ask you, so what about when people who are hesitant to ask sensitive questions start with the question like I did? May I ask you a sensitive question? Do you think that is a cop-out? Do you think that is a waste of time? Or do you think that is a good social grace?
Speaker 1
I think it's a nice signposting. It's a little bit of a warning like, hey, something's coming, pay attention. It at least gives the veneer or the veil of politeness and caring, right? You're also saying, I'm going to ask you something sensitive. If you don't want to answer it, I understand, right? That's a nice disclaimer. The same is true when you switch topics. You can note it like, is it OK if I take a hard left turn here? Is it OK if we smoke bomb and move to something else? It's almost like you're asking permission of your partner, even though they're sort of required to say yes, because we don't know what's coming next. But yes, I think it's lovely. Or you can just do it. Just ask, how much money do you make, guy? You know, like just go for it and see how people react. My wife
Speaker 2
is my financial planner. I really don't know. And everything is a direct deposit. I don't check my balance. But can I tell you a really funny story? Yes. You can use this story. I
Speaker 1
think I get to decide if it's funny, but okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2
I guarantee you when I tell you something is funny, it's funny. All right. So when I was at Apple, I used to work with some of the executives in outside companies who are Macintosh users. And one very famous person was a woman named Sandra Kurtzig. She started a computer company called Ask Computing. It was manufacturing software. She was the first woman in Silicon Valley to take a company public. So she was very, very rich. And she had this Ferrari Testarossa, which I love Ferraris, not that I ever own one. So anyway, she reaches out to us. She says, I'm having problems with my Macintosh. So Guy goes over to her house to help her with her Macintosh. Right. And she shakes the mouse and the screen wakes up and the window in the front is quicken. And I know how to use quicken. I know exactly where the current balance of your checkbook is. And I, as soon as she wakes up quick and I look down as like, holy shit, she has a quarter million dollars in her checking account. ever since that day it's been one of my goals to have a quarter million dollars in your checking account and i i have achieved that goal allison
Speaker 1
yes guy yes i love that you were so your eyes darted so quickly to the balance it's like it's such a lovely measure of your like inner curiosity i I love it so much. And you've done it. Is that it? You can drop the mic. You've achieved all the things you wanted in life. Quicken your $250 in your checking account. Tell
Speaker 2
that to your husband. I will. So if you ever need help with your Macintosh, be sure you have QuickBooks clothes when you call me to your house or I will know.
Speaker 1
I love it. I love it. I hope you're not tracking my screen right now. We're talking. Now I'm like, oh, God, what does he have access to on my computer? What do you want? What is this? What is this? What is this even do? It's too late.
Speaker 2
I already posted it on threads how much money you have. Clayton Christensen is up there laughing at us like, guy, you're really taking it to her. Go, guy, go. He's cheering
Speaker 1
you on. I can't decide if he's what would be cheering you on more or cheering me on more. I think he's cheering us on together.
Speaker 2
He's saying, I'm going to write a new book called The Conversationalist Dilemma. Exactly.
Speaker 1
When you love both people so much, what do you do?
Speaker 2
So, okay. Another question, what happens or what's the impact or the value? If somebody gives you an inappropriate, mean, or destructive answer and the person then says I was just being honest does that excuse you for being an asshole there's
Speaker 1
a really great Taylor Swift lyric that says casually cruel for the sake of being honest oh that line will cut you like a knife and I think it cuts you like a knife because it really captures something that we all feel torn about, this tension between benevolence or kindness or politeness and honesty. Because often the true contents of our minds are not kind. Our brains are built for judgment and social evaluation and negative evaluation of other people and their work. And as you can tell from the book, I think a lot about what kindness means. Sometimes being honest in the short term, maybe giving feedback that someone needs to hear is kindest in the long term. But still, you can deliver that honesty in a way that hopefully, and I think there's some nice ingredients in the book to do this, in a way that isn't even hurtful in the moment, so that we can navigate this conundrum between benevolence and honesty, even there with more kindness.
Speaker 2
Up next on Remarkable People.
Speaker 1
They are on a Zoom call but emailing at the same time. And so you get to see how overlapping and twisted and braided our conversations are these days. And what you realize is it's not just about choosing topics and asking questions. It's doing that while you're also engaged in like six other conversations at the same time that have their own unique topics and their own questions. And sometimes a human mind on the other end synchronously and sometimes not. And this new conversational world that requires us to toggle like this can feel quite overwhelming.
Speaker 2
Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners. It's our pleasure and honor to make the show for you. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate, and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this. Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki. What's your advice when you have to converse with someone that you just completely disagree with? If I went to some dinner and I had to sit next to Elon Musk, like how do I approach a conversation with someone I completely disagree with? You
Speaker 1
want to think about what your goals are, right? So we have goals in the short term, like to survive the dinner and not have it be miserable, not get in such a heated argument that you cause a scene or probably like ruin a potential relationship with Elon Musk forever. Those are kind of inhumane. Maybe that's your goal. That's okay if it is. But then you have longer term goals. If you are thinking about how could I leverage a meaningful relationship with Elon Musk, if you're playing the long game, your goal in the short term should be to have a great conversation with him. And the way that persuasion actually works between people is that you have to be in a good relationship. And if you have very differing views, they may slowly over time. Come to bend to the gentle pressure of your differing viewpoint, but you're not going to persuade him over a correspondence dinner at the White House in one conversation to change all of his views that you agree with. The odds of me being
Speaker 2
invited to the White House are zero. So yeah. You
Speaker 1
know what I mean? I think a lot of us have this instinct where we're seething. We hate the guy. We don't agree with almost anything that someone else stands for. And therefore, we have this need to be right and say something that really puts them in their place. But that's not how to pursue. If you really have goals to to persuade someone you got to play the long game okay
Speaker 2
i'll tell him that i think starlink is very well done how's that that's
Speaker 1
a good start compliments are a great start guy that sounds nice yes i
Speaker 2
hope it's a short dinner right
Speaker 1
so if yeah that's one i'm
Speaker 2
gonna have to ask ChatGPT. What topic should Guy discuss with Elon at dinner in the White House? To avoid
Speaker 1
getting into immediately into a shouting match. Yeah.
Speaker 2
Next question, also tactical. How do you end or divert a conversation where someone is hitting on you or sexually approaching you?
Speaker 1
I don't want to brag, but this was much of my life. So I have an experience.
Speaker 2
It's a 1% problem. You
Speaker 1
don't have to end it, right? A bit of flattery is nice no matter what, as long as it doesn't feel threatening. And as long as it's not disrespectful to someone else, to your partner, if you're in a relationship or if it's inappropriate in the context, if it's someone in the workplace who's coming and sort of coming on to you sexually in a way. So much of conversation is about reading your own needs, reading the other person's needs, and then reading the context. So if you're at a bar and somebody comes up to you and is hitting on you, that's appropriate, but you should probably say, oh, actually, I'm married or I'm in a relationship, I'm unavailable. If you're in the workplace, things get trickier because then you have power dynamics and other goals and outcomes at play. That one gets harder. Most organizations have an anonymous line where you can contact a sort of Title IX or mandatory reporter type of line to seek advice, especially if it's someone who comes to you who has actual power over you in terms of your work. And hopefully you feel comfortable confiding in some sort of mentor to ask for advice about what to do. But in general, if somebody makes an advance towards you, and certainly outside of the workplace, I think you can take it as a compliment and just be honest with them. Thank you so much, but I'm not available in that way.
Speaker 2
I know. I hate when women treat me as an object, but okay.
Speaker 1
Oh, that surfing guy. You're like
Speaker 2
a whole discussion about NPR and how great their questions are, but I have a question for you. It seems that when I'm listening to NPR, they ask a lot of closed end questions. And just let me parody that. Like some of these interviews on NPR, they say, well, you saw your mother kill your father when you were eight and there was blood all over the kitchen floor. And then you had to testify against your father. Can you tell us more about how that affected you? Well, the answer is yes or no, right? But what happens when you ask a closed-end question like that? Yeah,
Speaker 1
I think especially for an outlet like NPR or for many people when they're asking closed-ended questions, it's a sort of way, it's a leading question and it's a way of almost fact checking. It's literally saying, I know this about you already and I need you to confirm or deny that it's true. Or some use closed-ended questions to help set context for a new topic to judge how much you know. So if I were to change and say, Guy, have you seen the TV show Silo? Nope.
Speaker 2
Right.
Speaker 1
So I just need that information quickly in order to guide how much, what I'm going to say next. Am I going to continue down that path? Or like, this isn't going to be interesting to you because you haven't seen the show, so I'm going to pivot. So closed-ended questions do have an important purpose, but they're a completely different animal than the lovely open-ended launch pads that we were talking about before. Open-ended launch pads, by the way, good questions that inspire real information exchange and authenticity and connection often start with the word what. So I say, what is your favorite TV show right now? You'll give me an answer and then we can go from there. So I will learn more than twice as much information by asking that question than saying, have you seen the show Silo where I get a yes or a no? As opposed to open-ended questions that start with the word why. Why haven't you watched Silo yet? Or why don't you watch more TV? Those questions are open-ended in theory, but they feel accusatory. So the relational part of that kind of question asking a little bit goes by the wayside.
Speaker 2
Okay.
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