Meaningful Growth vs Gross Growth

Capitalism has historically been our biggest blessing. But what if it's now turning into our biggest curse? Is it time to change the game?

My guest today believes so. Jim Rutt is an early internet pioneer, complexity scientist, former chairman of the Santa Fe Institute, and co-founder of the Game B movement... and he has a lot to say about how our economic and technological systems have trapped us in addictive, self-reinforcing feedback loops. From smartphones engineered like slot machines to markets that manufacture desire rather than meet real needs, he argues that our current “Game A” world runs on a single signal — money-on-money return — and that this monoculture is quietly eroding both our agency, and planetary stability.

Which is where “Game B” comes in: a post-capitalist operating system built on multidimensional value, regenerative economies, and what he calls "membranes" — local, self-governing communities that cooperate through trust, technology, and shared sensemaking rather than rivalry and coercion.

So if, like me, you increasingly feel that modern life is engineered to keep us divided and distracted, I highly recommend this episode.

Liv

Chapters:

01:42 - intro

03:38 - Tech hygiene practices

06:57 - what was the motivation for tech sabbaticals?

10:12 - why do people love slots?

15:02 - When did Jim decide to build responsibly?

21:38 - status games

23:34 - The market as an information system

31:38 - have the status games moved primarily to digital

38:42 - definition of game A and game B

52:14 - How to prevent system collapse?

01:05:52 - Have any practical experiments been conducted on game B?

01:18:00 - why game A is self terminating

01:27:45 - how do declining populations factor into planetary boundaries?

01:39:41 - how do we exit the game when we are within it?

01:41:45 - defeating the "Big Man"

01:49:18 - Jim's trillion dollar idea

02:00:31 - AI consciousness

02:14:36 - Consciousness vs Intelligence

02:22:48 - the dangers of ascribing consciousness to AI

02:26:32 - Rapid fire predictions

02:28:53 - Jim's WIN-WIN

Links:

♾️ The Jim Rutt Show: https://www.jimruttshow.com

♾️ Jim’s X: https://x.com/jim_rutt?lang=en

♾️ Game B wiki: https://www.gameb.wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

♾️ Game B Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/gamebcore

♾️ Jim’s essay on smartphone dopamine: https://medium.com/@memetic007/reclaiming-our-cognitive-sovereignty-f49f30eb26bb

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2