The Spectrum of Defensiveness in Pastors

LZ Granderson: Is it possible to transform a church while you're transforming yourself and break down that system? Has that ever worked out? LZ: Here again, this is where the spectrum is helpful. And so if there's a little bit of defensiveness, let's say it's someone who's come to me because there has been some conflict with the board or with staff. He says in that pastor, I'm not sensing as much defensiveness as I might sense in another pastor. "I've seen it happen where pastors in particular have really started to do their own work"