Speaker 2
good you've um worked with and served under pretty much all the prime ministers of the last uh Tory prime ministers at least the last uh 20 or 30 years which ones would you say had a good
Speaker 1
grasp of history a good uh intellectual understanding of history well I think the two who stand out of David Cameron and Boris Johnson I mean I don't mean to malign um Theresa May in any way um uh as it happens um and the sort the choice of subject you have at university does not determine things uh Theresa was a geographer and you could see that in the way in which she thought some of the things that she was most interested in uh data uh geographical disparities and inequalities uh thinking about um uh the the way in which parts of the country certain cities were underperforming very much driven by that that mindset uh David Cameron studied uh politics and economics at university but he did have a profan grasp of history and a real interest in it particularly 19th and 20th century political history uh he had been taught at uh Brason's College Oxford by Vernon Bogdanor very distinguished constitutional historian and David would uh often lightly but not not not not egregiously bring history to bear um his a principle of tenant almost co-equal in government George Osborne studied history loves uh history and I remember um on one occasion uh hearing about a dispute that he had with the the chiefs the defense chiefs chief of the general staff first of all the amortians or about defense spending and they said how dare the treasury tell us uh what we should be spending our money on and he pointed out the treasury had in fact been created specifically to tell them what they should be spending their money on with rich historical reference and then of course Boris Johnson and Boris studied classics at university so he is particularly a uh uh knowledgeable about ancient history both Roman and uh Greek um and you know the there were occasions when he would uh cite examples from Thucydides um about the way in which power should operate the
Speaker 2
um there's a lovely tradition isn't there in uh in Whitehall where ministers can have portraits of their historical heros brought in and tell us a few of um of who's chosen what what it says about them who did you
Speaker 1
example well I I had um uh one of the uh first spy masters um uh Cecil who served uh Queen Elizabeth uh on the wall um I or
Speaker 3
great Lord Burley exactly did you
Speaker 1
how extraordinary um and I also uh had uh canning uh peel uh and bollingbrook um and uh uh I would have had but
Speaker 3
unfortunately I
Speaker 1
couldn't find anywhere in the government art collection a portrait of the great Marquis of Salisbury um so I had to make do with a copy of your biography of him or my desk
Speaker 2
um now that's very interesting so canning at canning the great orator um peel the great reformer yes I mean I can see why you're choosing these are the reasons you're choosing these
Speaker 1
uh these people. Yes and also uh I think that the that um canning's foreign policy whose prime minister for a very brief time as you know but canning's foreign policy was to facilitate the spread of liberty without unduly committing Britain's resources so it was a mixture of uh idealism liberal idealism and prudence uh which is very attractive um and in peels case uh again I'm conflicted about um uh the period when peel and israeli were uh battling because I think both of them are politicians of immense virtue but peel put the national interest first um and I think one can safely say if one looks back at the decisions that he
Speaker 2
made he set Victorian Britain on a course of prosperity even though it kept the Tory party out of majority power for 28 years well that
Speaker 1
that is true um and uh again uh this is one of the reasons why I think anyone looking back at it will be conflicted because some of the arguments that uh Israeli and his Elizel George Benton others made will resonate in any Tory heart um but there was about peel I think um uh something uh impressive even though of course uh he wasn't the most charismatic figure I think it was the case um I remember uh studying Victorian history at school that his smile um was compared to the silver plate on a coffin um and uh again while not sympathetic in in many respects uh there was something heroic about
Speaker 2
you and let's go on to bollingbrook there because you have signed a contract to write his biography we're talking um about the Henry Syngen first by Camp Bollingbrook 1678 1751 he was the leader of the Tories but he supported the 15 he supported the great Jack by rebellion of 15 and when that failed of course he had to go into exile he didn't return to England for another eight years I
Speaker 4
think it's quite impressive actually that he managed to get back at all Oh quite considering that he does that because of concerning the his guilty
Speaker 2
of treachery yes he was a political philosopher uh opposed to wall poll as well obviously what what attracted you to to actually sit down and write um a um and write a biography of a figure who um I've always thought just tremendously important but uh but he lived um 250 years ago well
Speaker 1
there are several things uh the first thing is that uh as I mentioned earlier when I was studying um English literature at university that period was fascinating so bollingbrook was not just a political leader and someone who came within a hairs breadth twice of becoming prime minister um uh or uh even though the title wasn't used at the time um he was also an intimate of swift and pope and the great wits and minds of of his time subsequently he became a friend of Voltaire's when he was an exile in France so he was both a politician of consequence at a time of tumult and um an intellectual and supporter of uh creative endeavor he became uh when he entered the house of commons a star because at the Tory party of the time was a party of uh uh the squire rocky for one of a better word the party it didn't tend to attract the brightest and the best all of the truly ambitious politicians were on the other side on the quig side so the the Tory party had solidity but no sparkle he provided the spark he was a brilliant orator um and so rose to the top there but then iqaristal he flew too close to the sun uh he was intriguing at the very end of queen an's reign with the jacobites and uh against others in the Tory party so he fell exactly as you say he then
Speaker 1
join the old pretender was in fact his his sort of principal advisor and foreign secretary the 1715 rebellion went disastrously wrong so he then reinvented himself and he reinvented himself uh as a pantherty and he was one of the great polemical journalists of the of the time he produced a newspaper that craftsman um which created the you know the the parliamentary opposition to wolpole wolpole seemed as though at the time the great quig grandi who became the the first prime minister that we we recognize um um uh inhabiting that role fully uh but he became the architect of the opposition towards him uh again he came uh uh close to assuming power uh but his hopes were dashed and then he went on to become a writer and philosopher and shaped conservative thinking they're after so
Speaker 3
he has many faults
Speaker 1
um uh and he led when he was in power a life of uh remarkable licentiousness as well certainly by contemporary standards
Speaker 3
um so it's just the
Speaker 1
as a way of understanding that time uh uh his life is intrinsically fascinating i think