White, conservative, evangelical American Christians helped to bring Donald Trump to power. Their political activism is turbo-charged by populist right-wing "post-liberals"  who believe traditions like civility and pluralism are passé -- people including entertainers like Tucker Carlson and Curtis Yarvin, as well as intellectuals like Sohrab Amari, Patrick Deneen and Rod Dreher.

These "post-liberals" are correct in some of their criticisms of modern America but wrong in their solutions, argues today's guest, Jonathan Rauch. And who's best-placed to defeat them? Paradoxically, this atheist Jew argues: the Evangelical Church.

Rauch has spent his life fighting for liberal values. At The Economist magazine, he pioneered its editorial embrace of gay marriage long before that was popular. His hugely influential books include "The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth", about which Josh and Sam Harris interviewed him on Sam's podcast, Making Sense, in 2024.

Today: What happens to American democracy if Christianity can no longer perform the functions on which our constitutional order depends? Josh and Jonathan wrestle it out.

Rauch is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a contributing editor of The Atlantic. His new book, "Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy", is available at https://tinyurl.com/y8ejdd5z

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