That is the key to it, always. And that you actually, as a UX, you care about the data as well. And not only data about the users, but also data about what does it bring to the company in the end.

I think I'm a big advocate of the hypothesis we're working. Whether we call it lean or something else. Scientific method. Exactly. The scientific method. I think just having that approach is something that's very healthy. And as Per says, I think it's, in my

experience, it can

be missing from a lot of projects. Not just the agency side. I think another, it can be also when, or several situations. But the other example would be when you're working with enterprise software. Where you've got an extra layer in between you

and

the customer. Because you've got the end users, but then you've got clients who actually buy all the customers to the enterprise organization who buy it. So I think that can be also difficult and difficult to find the data to back it up. Because you've got the sales process and the end user process. That's such a wonky process. Yeah, it's different, it's different compared to if you're working with a product, an app or a website. Where you're actually driving it straight to the sales process to the end user. It's, yeah, data is very useful, I think, in those situations. When you've actually got the ability to get it. Yeah. And what I've noticed too is in those situations, I worked at a company that was a B2B software or a CEO and I was the lead UX designer there. So I was the only UX designer there. I did the UX for everything. It was again one of those things where we had like six product managers and they would just shove things at me and make me design it. And they didn't understand what UX was, they only understood it as visual design. But at that company as well, I found that the salespeople would promise their clients pretty much whatever they wanted without really consulting about the UX on it or the tech. They'll be like, is this feasible? And tech will go, yep, we can actually build that. And then they go, okay, great, you're building it. You're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's have a conversation about this. Let's actually figure it out. And that's, you know, it's the nature of sales structures too, right? Salespeople get paid on how much to sell. So if they sell a lot of stuff, that's great, like fantastic. They make a lot of money. But that doesn't really work beneficially for UX. So I tried to as well, what I really, really love doing is training salespeople on how to do user research and turn them into like a nice little SWAT user research team and have them go out and, you know, tell them the right questions, like ask, have them not just try to solve people's problems, but find out what those problems are and communicate that back. And if you can get into a drive like that, there's a company that doesn't in England, it's so valuable. Like they interact with customers all day and you have just this constant feedback of problems like coming in that you can actually work with the team to solve. And I think that's like the most beneficial way to do sales. And they're good at it. Like they're really good at talking to people and like prying out the information and they love it. And, you know, there's just this whole force that companies have that they could take advantage of, but they're not because they're just trying to sell their thing very narrow-mindedly without actually exploring all the different ways that they, you know, all the different products they can make, all the solutions they could possibly come up with just by getting that information, just by getting those problems

out. Exactly

understanding, so training the salespeople to

understand the why of their sales leads

rather than just provide a solution. Exactly. Yeah, they jump into it. It's like I was in the same company. I finally convinced them to let me do user research. That took a long time to convince. And I remember they gave me like a salesperson to go with me to the clients to babysit me and make sure like I didn't say anything bad. So we were sitting in the room with one guy and he was telling me about his problems and I was like really excited because there was a lot of things we could solve. And the salesperson was sitting there trying to solve all his problems. Well, you can do that and you can do this and we have these products and we can build this for you and we can do that. And I was like, stop it. Can you please stop? Like, I just need to do research. And what happens too is that the client, you know, would shut up. He would stop talking about his problems because he was just like, oh, they're going to solve it anyway. So I don't have to think about this. And he lose all that wonderful dynamic and that feedback. So that's a struggle I see with a lot of enterprise clients. But I also see they're like so well set up to do better testing. Whenever I do like my workshops on MVPs, I always get enterprise people there who are like, oh, but we can do MVP testing. We're a B2B company, you know, we're bigger. We have more risk associated with what we do. I'm like, yeah, well, that's why you should be testing too because you do have higher risk. But I got, I like the B2B companies because you know who your clients are. Like you can literally go to their office and sit down with them rather than consumer companies where if you want to get prospective clients, you have to go out in the streets and go to Starbucks and try to talk to people. You know, it's really hard to find who your customers in that case. B2B companies, you literally could show up on their doorstep and like walk in. So you've got all these people to talk to. They're also pretty passionate about using your products because they help, they usually help them when they're working. So we used to do testing with them and put feature flags on it. So we would only turn it on for like a select five customers, let them try out new products, new MVP type things, see if it worked, you know, and then we would go back and actually invest in building the whole thing. And it's so easy to do that with B2B companies but people are really scared about it because they think it's, they think that it will provide

about experience for the customers and that's just not true.