Policy Flexibility, Human Judgment, and Social Tradeoffs

They debate wiggle room, appeals, and how formal rules interact with human discretion in society.

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Episode notes

Kathleen Fisher and Byron Cook dive into automated reasoning and formal verification as tools for building truly secure software systems. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explain how formal methods can harden critical infrastructure against AI-enabled cyberattacks, and how assumptions, specifications, and proofs combine to deliver real security guarantees. The conversation explores using these techniques to train coding models, enable a “great software rewrite,” and power AWS’s new automated reasoning checks for AI agents and policy compliance.

Sponsors:

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Shopify:

Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive

CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(04:52) AI Reshapes Cybersecurity

(10:16) Formal Methods Foundations

(17:46) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 1)

(21:27) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet

(24:27) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 2)

(28:31) Helicopter Formal Verification

(38:15) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 1)

(41:52) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify

(44:40) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 2)

(50:33) Automated Reasoning For Policies