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Survivor hall-of-famer John Cochran revisits his legendary rise from tribe traitor to king of the island. He gets into the bullying antics of his first go at the crown, the mixed bag of superfans joining the game, and how the Survivor arena isn’t that too far off from the political one. He and Lovett also bond over their compulsion to self-deprecate, which seems to have worked out pretty well for them both so far.

For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email transcripts@crooked.com and include the name of the podcast.