Navigating the Copywriting Journey

If you’ve been doing all the things, listening to the advice of the experts, and you’re still not seeing results, maybe the thing holding you back is your mindset. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I’m speaking with former copywriter and current mindset coach, Brian McCarthy. We talked about burnout, imposter complex, confidence and much more. If you’re doing “all the things” and still not reaching your goals, this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Emily Reagan’s Interview
Tanya Geisler’s Interview (Imposter Complex)
Brian’s Website
Imposter Complex eBook
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
The How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass

Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Maybe the thing keeping you from getting what you want and working with the clients you deserve is you. Want to know more? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast.

Content writers, copywriters, social media writers, and marketers of all kinds face a bunch of challenges when it comes to building a successful business that supports the lifestyle that we all want. 

We talk about finding clients on the podcast a lot… maybe too much because there are other challenges… figuring out our niches, creating irresistable products and services that clients want to buy, pricing, positioning, marketing, and of course writing and so on.

All of those business skills are important. If you can’t do them yourself or if you can’t hire someone else to do these for you, you’ll struggle as a business owner.

But there is a whole other set of skills that we often overlook that also impact your ability to grow your business. We generally think of these hidden skills as mindset. And that’s what we’re talking about on today’s podcast.

My guest is former copywriter and current mindset coach Brian McCarthy. Brian works with copywriters and others to help them work through mindset blocks and develop new skills to overcome them. Things like growing confidence, finding clarity and alignment, over coming imposter complex and a lot more. If you’ve been doing everything right but still struggle to get traction or feel like you’re making a difference in the world… or even just for your clients, maybe refocusing your efforts on mindset is what’s called for. So keep listening for our thoughts on these critical, but often ignored, mindset skills.

Before we jump into our interview, a little while ago I recorded a masterclass to show copywriters, content writers and other marketers how to write “emotional” copy. Everyone says emotions sell, but how do you actually write emotional copy? I walk through more than a dozen examples in this masterclass and give you a proven process for figuring out the right emotions to focus on as you write… and how they change as you make your pitch. The masterclass includes several bonuses on storytelling, using A.I. to find dominant and transformational emotions, and much more. You can get this masterclass at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion

And now, my interview with Brian McCarthy.

Brian, welcome to the podcast. I’m thrilled to have you here, like we were saying, just as we were chatting before we started recording, we met briefly a bunch of years ago, you were doing something slightly different than what you did today. Yeah, tell me just how did you get here. You’re a mindset coach, but you also have a pretty big background in copywriting. So tell me about that?

Brian McCarthy: Yeah, so I started copywriting, I don’t know 20, 2014 or so got into that world, and I was always copywriting for a lot of personal growth companies and coaches. I was just very into the personal growth world. And then eventually, like, found my I was doing launches, I was doing case studies, those became like my my main even wrote a book on how to do case studies like that kind of became my main focus. And then I was when the pandemic hit. One of my clients was this big life coach, Ronnie Britton, she’s amazing, and she has a coach. She has a program teaching people how to coach. And then I was like, that seems like a useful skill. I’ll do it. And then took the program, and as I started coaching people, I was like, Oh, this is the greatest thing in the world. And eventually moved from copywriting into coaching full time. And it was one of those, like, oh yeah, no. Like, I was always feeling that nudge to be in the personal growth world, like, yeah, no, wonder. And even during my copywriting career, it always felt like this is a stepping stone to something else. I just didn’t know what that something else was. Then once I found coaching, I was like, oh, it’s it’s that, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So before we jump into all the stuff you’re doing as coaching, I’d love to dive into your copy career just a little bit, because six, six years as a copywriter is nothing to sniff at, you know, writing a book about case studies. So let’s talk about that. How did you get started as a copywriter, and how did you really find those first couple of clients? I got started. I was just listening to podcasts while working at a corporate desk job that was slowly destroying my soul. And I was like, Oh, this sounds kind of nice, yeah, just, you know, travel and write and be on a beach and fire off a letter, and you make a bunch of money and everyone loves you. That sounds like a pretty good career.

And then so I ended up, like, getting a severance from that job, say, like, merged and, and I was like, I’m just gonna try this Copyright thing, and spent the first year and a half just fighting for jobs on jobs boards being making little to no money, literally, like, I’d calculate my hourly rate, and I’m like, I made pennies on this ebook per hour. Like, so just slogging it out that was tough. And then eventually things started to stabilize. I got a job with Ramit Sethi, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. 

I was a senior copywriter with them for about a year, and then left that after a year, and then started to do the freelance thing, and got ended up with, like, feast or famine kind of thing. Like, it was actually going pretty well, but it was really unstable. Like, I finally did that, like, all right, making six figures, traveling the world a bit. It wasn’t, wasn’t all that easy to get to that point, but I got there and then got a couple steady retainer clients eventually after that, where I had like two clients, was making good money working, you know, three or four hours a day and able to travel. So that was kind of like my initial goal of what I wanted, what I wanted to hit as a copywriter. And I was like, oh, hit that. And then, of course, had, and again, it was like for personal growth companies, this parenting company that’s wonderful. 

So I was very fortunate. I’ve always loved my clients and been able to write for just wonderful people and great programs. Again, doing a lot of launches, case studies, some email marketing stuff. I always liked the longer form sales page and the more in depth, bigger projects, the you know, Hey, can I hire you for four emails? I’m like, What are you talking about? I have to learn so much to write four emails. I can write you like a 40 page letter. That was always more what drew me

Rob Marsh: Me too. I’m the same way. I love writing emails, but sales, sales. Email sells copies where I live. Okay, so you’ve got this interesting skill set that you’ve developed since then, but I wonder, you know if you were coaching Brian McCarthy, copywriter just starting out making pennies per project, what mindset skills would you teach him, or would you basically walk him through in order to help him deal with that struggle or make progress faster for beginning copywriters, I guess the question is, what are the mindset things that we need to be focused on in order to make progress?

Brian McCarthy: Yeah, great question. A couple things jump out based on a lot of the copywriters that I coach, and especially the ones that are just starting out. There’s one big piece is alignment of finding what actually inspires you and excites you. It’s really easy, and it’s copywriting world and online marketing world to get to seduced by like, Well, the big name person says that this is the best route to go. So now I’m gonna start us build a social media presence. Do you like social like? Do you like Instagram? Do you like social media? No, but it’s the it says. They say it’s the best way. So now I’m going to do that. I’m like, no, no, let’s find what actually works for you. So maybe that’s Instagram and social media, but maybe feeling more inclined to something else, whether that’s the method for growing your business, or the type of copywriting you want to do, or the type of companies you want to do, one is just getting like, the noise and all the stuff out there can be helpful and has its place. But first, let’s start with what’s really inspiring and aligned for you. Then the next piece. So that would be the first like clarity piece, and then the next piece would be the confidence piece of like, okay, how can let’s build up your confidence in a way that’s authentic, where you can own, even if you’re just starting out, you can still own the various skills and values and what you bring to the table beyond because a lot of people get stuck in, like, what I I don’t have the copywriting experience, and that’s all that matters. And it’s just the skills. It’s like, yeah, that’s yeah, that’s all important. And other things matter too. Are like, your ability to take feedback is super important. Your ability to communicate well, to hit deadlines. There’s all these other things, your passion for the work, your ability to listen and like find what the actual like thing worth talking about, even is there’s all these other things that people don’t they lose sight of the importance of it, and because they just focus on what they don’t have versus the pieces they do. So the next part, after the clarity would be the confidence in like, well, what are you bringing to the table and sharing that in a way where you’re not you know, trying to a lot of copywriters think they need to come in and kick the doors down and proclaim that they’re God’s gift to copywriting and gonna make you $10 million overnight. Like, no, don’t do that. Come from an honest, authentic place where you’re owning. Your value and what you bring to the table in a way that feels aligned, and they can see the value, but it’s not this big, you know, puffing out your chest nonsense like, because clients see and feel that, and they’re pretty sick of that too. They don’t want it. And then the last piece would be, the other mindset. Pieces outside of clarity, then confidence would then be like building more consistency. So a lot of what gets in the way that procrastination, self doubt, which is related to the confidence piece, and or again, lack of clarity of how I want to grow my business, like getting consistent with putting yourself out there, developing the habits, that’s another big piece, and that’s a lot easier too, once you have the clarity and confidence pieces in place.

Rob Marsh: So as far, I’d love to break this down just a little bit more to understand each set. So starting with alignment, if this is a really difficult thing, obviously I’ve coached hundreds and hundreds copywriters as well. This is one of the starting pieces where you’re really trying to figure out your positioning, the product or service that you’re offering, the value you’re creating, the problem you’re solving, all of that stuff. And it takes, it takes time. I mean, there’s a reason why a lot of beginning copywriters don’t make a lot of money in that first year. It’s because, at least it feels to me like we’re bouncing from thing to thing trying to figure this stuff out. So how do we how do we shorten that process and make it a little bit easier? Because oftentimes a copywriter comes into it, yeah, we might have some background experience. You know, I I was a bartender, or I was a school teacher, I was a nurse and and we can bring that to the table, but sometimes we’re trying to get away from that stuff too, and we’re looking for something that rings a bell for us or really turns us on, but we don’t know what that is yet.

Brian McCarthy: And it definitely is an exploration piece. One thing that immediately comes to mind, and this came from a coach I work with a lot, Kavita Singh, so it’s something that she helped me with and and that’s looking at the difference between, like, what you can do versus what you’re meant to do. And it’s like, okay, can I do this thing? Yes, I have these skills in this background, and that’s a needed thing, versus, yeah, more of that internal radar of what excites you and what gets you going. And there is, there is sometimes gonna just be that process of, like, trying things out and getting feedback and, like, there is a okay, like, figure it out as you go. It’s not necessarily like you’re in the garage and get it all fixed up, and then you go, it’s, it’s, it is more of a guess and check thing. So even I mean, that would be my biggest thing is, one is just really focusing on that internal radar and homing in on that and what you’re meant to do outside of like what looks best, or what you should do, or what’s smartest, like, you can still look at that, but make sure you’re not doing it at the expense of that inner peace or that piece inside you. And and the other part is even just honoring the the idea that it might take a little bit like it’s worth doing right, rather than rushing through to get the first thing. And again, this is an industry that very much values speed and instant transformation and all that kind of thing. And it’s an industry that, what do, you know, also has a lot of burnout, also has businesses that don’t exist in five years, you know, because it was more about like, well, this works. Let’s do more of that. And then people build businesses and go, like, I don’t even care about what I’m doing right now. I don’t care about these people. Like, I got sucked in the thing, because it’s what paid the bills, and people said yes to it. And now I’m doing group coaching calls that I hate to a bunch of people that I don’t even want to help. Like, that kind of thing happens in my mind, because a lot of that internal piece and like, what are you really meant to do? What really inspires you? What are the big problems that you know a lot of times that, like you faced in your life, that you want to help people with that kind of thing gets might get cut over or, like, jump through, that piece gets missed a little bit.

Rob Marsh: This feels like where the typical advice about finding a niche sometimes goes wrong. And I’ll be upfront, I’m all about finding a niche and working in a niche. I think the data is there in salary surveys that we’ve done that show that somebody working in niche makes significantly more money than somebody who’s a generalist. So obviously choosing a niche is good for your long term copywriting or whatever it is, service business that you’re running. However, sometimes it takes a while to find the niche. You know, as an example, you might become a copywriter thinking, hey, I’m I could write sales copy. I’ve done maybe door to door sales at one point when I was in college, or I sold shoes at Nordstrom, or whatever the thing is. And so I’m going to. Write, you know, sales emails or sales letters, and then as you get into it, you discover this entire world of Salesforce and sales enablement tools and all the things that happen in the background that you could fall in love with. You may not have even known that that stuff exists until you get into the process. And so again, while I’m really big on choosing a niche. I’m also really big on taking time to figure out what it is that you’re interested in, to explore that stuff, to learn the new things, so you can even discover and open yourself up to whatever it is, like you said, that you’re going to be aligned with.

Brian McCarthy: Totally, yeah, it’s like, it’s like, how can you be expected to make the decision of the direction to go. If you don’t have, if you’re of a very limited information like you explore these things exactly like you said, then you have more information to work with, and you can make a more informed decision of what direction you want to go. And also, nothing’s forever, right? I mean, you were talking about building a business, and three, four years down the road, you find out that this isn’t something that lights you up anymore, so you can always change that as well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, we’re always evolving. So it’s very likely that it’s gonna evolve whether, whether you expect it to, or wanted to, or not. Like, yeah, you almost, you almost can’t help it. So yeah, a lot of that fear of like, oh, but if I pick a niche, I’m like, I’m in a prison forever. It’s like, No, you like you, literally like you’re going to keep changing. So as long as your business is a reflection of you, then it’s going to be changing as well.

Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about confidence, because, and this is a challenge, we always seem to want to wait to do the thing until we’re confident that we can do it. And we all we’ve talked about this on the podcast a few times, but we all know confidence. You can’t just hand somebody confidence. You can’t teach it. You can’t even learn it unless you do the thing. And so I liked what you were saying about, you know, looking at your background and thinking about some of the things that have sort of gotten you to this point where you are. But let’s, let’s go a little bit deeper on this. How can we sort of borrow confidence or create confidence until we’ve actually proven we can do this thing and we own the confidence that we’re showing out to the world?

Brian McCarthy: Yeah, I’ve got a lot to go there. So first of all, that was my biggest I’d say that was probably my biggest hurdle when I was a copywriter, was I always felt like I wasn’t good enough. I was just like, I’m one bad sales page away for like, this is gonna be bad clients gonna hate it. They’re gonna fire me. They’re gonna tell everybody I’m terrible and I’m never gonna get a job again. That, like, I had that for a good five years, like that was just always there. And of course, yeah, that confidence keeps you from like, it kept me, like, under charging at certain times. Kept me from going for certain jobs. It just made me more stressed all the time, kept maybe work longer hours than I need to, kept me buying more courses that I wouldn’t even go through because my own insecurities like, but if I have this magic knowledge, then I’ll be good, right? And that, like, that whole cycle that people get in of chasing shiny objects is just a lack of confidence. So, yeah, there’s, there’s a lot to go in here where you talk about, can you borrow confidence? Like, yeah, absolutely. I think there’s that that can be a little bit of a band aid. But, you know, if you get, like, I had certain mentors and coaches that knew the industry, and that would tell me, like, oh, you can charge that much for that. So be like, Oh, okay, I guess I’ll charge more now. Like, I guess I’ll charge 250 for a copy critique call instead of 100 great. And so you can get that, or even just that was another big thing I did. I would very often hire other copywriters to look at my work. So it’s like, Oh, okay. David robbold told me my copy is good. Okay, it’s good. Like, now I can feel better about it. So having these kind of, yeah, mentors, coaches, people you can hire, even if just a one off, that’s that’s super valuable. And I’d say the other piece where confidence really gets gets going and owned, is when you look at some of the deeper fears and beliefs and expectations people have that’s keeping them from having that confidence, and you start to look deeper at that and unravel it, that works a lot more effectively than a lot of what people are generally doing, of the like, well, just tell yourself this positive thing. Just remind yourself of the wins you do have over and over. Like, yes, that’s important, but if you haven’t done the deeper work of unraveling some of the deeper fears and beliefs, then it’s like planting seeds in a garden that’s already full of weeds. Like, it’s it’s not going to really take it’s not, it’s not going to take root. It’s you’ve got to, like, rip this other stuff out, and then that creates the space for those more, you know, owning your value, and those more confident beliefs, to really settle in and get embodied. And then then you feel that confidence and conviction more yourself.

Rob Marsh: Can you give us a. Couple of examples of those existing beliefs that really keep us from developing confidence?

Brian McCarthy: Sure. So one that I run into a bunch when I work with copywriters, like they have this idea of, I’m not a real quote, unquote, I’m not a real copywriter, right? Or I’m not or even just, I’m not a real writer. And then so I’m like, okay, cool. So what does a real copywriter mean? And we just go into their definition of it. So like this one client I worked with, she she had these kind of, like, personal issues going on, but basically meant she could only write for two hours a day. And she’s like, well, and she had a full time job for a well known, you know, company that hires a lot of copywriters. She’s like, well, if I can only write two hours a day, like, I’m not a real copywriter. So I’m imposter. I’m a joke. So then I’m like, Well, where did this idea come from that a real writer needs to work write six hours a day or whatever? Like, okay, oh, this is just a made up thing that you created. So she had this definition in her mind of what a real copywriter is. And we just looked at that and looked at the truth of it, and I just would ask a bunch of questions, and basically just start poking a bunch of holes at it, and then it fell apart. Then we found it like, well, what’s a new definition that feels more real and more true to you? And then she’s like, actually, I could be a real copywriter and still work two hours a day and then, and this is how the other parts of my day look, and, and was like, So, and does that feel true to you? Right? Not just a nice idea intellectual exercise, but getting to the point where, like you, honestly, like in your soul and bones, believe that, okay, cool. And, and then she could start to remind herself and operate from that place of like, well, yes, I’m a real copywriter, even if it’s not showing up in this way that I initially thought I had to show up. So that’s, that’s one idea is, how do you work through these beliefs and fears and everything? Look at your definitions. Look at your definitions of what you have, what a copywriter means, of what being successful on this project means that’s, that’s, there’s like several different ways to kind of attack this, and sometimes it takes multiple but that’s one, and it can be a very strong one for helping people get more confidence in in their role.

Rob Marsh: I like that approach. A few weeks ago, on another episode of this podcast, I interviewed my friend Emily Reagan, and she told a story. I had actually forgotten of this about this, but she told a story how we were at the copywriter club in real life event in San Diego, talking at the bar, and she mentioned that she she didn’t feel comfortable being a copywriter. She wasn’t a copywriter, and she wasn’t even sure why she was at the event, and it was crazy because she was writing copy for her clients, but because she had assumed the title, you know, whether, whether it was marketing assistant or administrative assistant or virtual assistant, or whatever, at the time, she she wasn’t giving herself permission to be a copywriter, and she reminded me of this on the episode. So if anybody wants to go back and listen to go back and listen to this example, it’s episode 441, I think. But she basically said to me, or I said to her, you have permission. You are a copywriter, right? I it was kind of that sword to the shoulder, you know, you are now a knight, or you are, you know. But the idea here is that you don’t need to wait for, you know, a senior copywriter to say you’re a good enough writer to be a copywriter anymore, or a manager or, you know, and when we work for ourselves anyway, that person’s not coming along. Even a lot of coaches aren’t going to take the time to say you are a copywriter. Give yourself permission. So anyway, kind of a long answer back to you, but it’s such a good example. You don’t need to wait for permission if you’re writing, especially if you’re writing copy for clients. You’re a copywriter, and you might as well own it and start getting better at it.

Brian McCarthy: And again, like, that’s, that’s a great example of, like, yeah. The almost like, the borrowed confidence that can can help, right? And like, Oh, cool. Rob told me that, and I’m good. I’m sure there’s a lot of people that have felt that way. And it’s Yeah, ultimately, you do want to get that source yourself, because, like, why, you know what, and what’s the definition of copywriter that works for you, and and why do you need somebody else to bequeath it onto you? Why, like, there’s a little bit of that, why it still can stay a little wobbly and like, it can give us confidence, but it’s still we still have those doubts, is because we’re still getting that confidence from outside of ourselves. We’re still giving the power of who we are and what we’re doing to somebody else. We need somebody else to validate it and to tell us we’re okay and tell us, like what we are, versus owning that and claiming that for ourselves. And yeah, part of that is like just knowing, like just getting really clear on what that is and what we’re showing up with and what we’re bringing. And valuing that, and yeah, and what if you what you want to call yourself based on that that feels true and right for you.

Rob Marsh: Okay, so that’s alignment, confidence. Then we have consistency. Consistency feels to me like it’s just a matter of daily practice, or we’re setting the flywheel to do the thing that we do over and over, is it more than that?

Brian McCarthy: So I’d say it’s more than that in there can be some blocks in that, right? So what’s keeping you from being consistent? Oh, there’s procrastination. Oh, why are you procrastinating? Oh, well, there’s some deeper fear of, you know, being seen as a fraud, or I’m gonna mess up and everyone’s gonna see I’m incompetent, or whatever it is, or, sometimes it’s misalignment, right? It goes back to the beginning of, why am I inconsistent? Because part of you knows this, ain’t it, and you’re trying to force yourself to do something that just like there’s, there’s just something a little off. So there can be pieces, either based on the first two things, or maybe something else that’s kind of in the way of that consistency. And then, yeah, there’s also just simpler things for, like, tactical steps for building that consistency. Like a lot of times, you know, people put big pressure on themselves of what that needs to be for them to be writing every day, or doing all this kind of outreach, or whatever it looks like to grow their business. And so just one helpful thing that is, you know, there’s always books on small habits and all that kind of stuff, and that’s just a super impactful way to get people going, of like, take the pressure off, do it for five minutes. It’s not even about getting the clients. It’s just about you building the habits of doing that. And when you start to take the pressure off, take the expectations you have for yourself off, then the consistency develops, and then it kind of starts to continue with itself. And these things that you are avoiding become more enjoyable, more automatic, and then you’re doing the things to grow your business and get yourself out there, deliver the copy for your clients, whatever it is.

Rob Marsh: Those are some pretty good tools. As far as thinking through those first couple of months of being in business and getting up and going. But a lot of us, we start to hit other bumps as well. The one that really stands out and really hits from the beginning right up, and pros still suffer with it, and that’s imposter complex or imposter syndrome, depending on how people like to define that. We’ve had a really, I’ve pointed people to a previous episode of the podcast where we’ve talked about that with Tanya Geisler, and I think it’s episode number 47 and definitely worth a listen. But let’s, let’s talk about that again. Because no matter, no matter how much you know about imposter complex, it still seems to pop its head up when we try something new, even sometimes when we’re just doing the thing that we do, but maybe it’s for a new client or a new product, whatever. So let’s, let’s talk imposter complex. So what can we do to overcome it?

Brian McCarthy: Sure, yeah, and that I went through that podcast, and it was awesome, and I think there’s a lot she shares that can really, like, shed a lot of light for people and help bring clarity. And the kind of crusade I’ve put on lately, because I learned this maybe a year ago, and then I started applying it. And really like seeing changes is that the the fundamental idea that imposter syndrome doesn’t go away, it’s just there forever. You just got to deal with it. It’s just not true. And then so once I learned that, and I started applying to my own life, and I started applying that with clients more, and I’ve seen the truth of that, like, it’s, I understand a lot of the common thing, it’s like, hey, it’s just fear. Like, yes, it’s based in fear. And that doesn’t mean, like I was afraid of dogs when I was three. Doesn’t mean I’m still afraid of dogs. You know, we can overcome these fears. We can dissolve them. And there was another point that just escaped my head. Oh, well, okay, yeah, basically, the idea that it can be, it’s there forever, just isn’t the truth. It doesn’t have to be the truth. And so the the ways that I look at imposter syndrome and help people work through it, it kind of, it’s the first is just looking at the the different fears and beliefs and expectations attached to it, which is similar to what I said before, about like the definitions we create, the definitions of what success means, how we think we need to be these expectations we have in our heads, all this stuff, and looking at that, challenging, that dismantling that, and doing that in a like it takes, it can often take a pretty deep and thorough exploration. That’s why people can think that they know like, Oh, I know I’m putting this outrageous. I know I’ve got this perfectionism thing, and it’s not actually true, but it still feels like I need to be this amazing copywriter with million dollar launches under my belt, or I suck. And I know that that’s ridiculous, and I know that that’s not true, but I still buy into it. It’s like, cool, okay. That just means you haven’t gone deep enough yet. There’s just still more stuff to explore. Or what’s hooking that in your system still? So that’s the first level. The second layer is some kind of core fear that can be kind of dissolved and broken free from. And the third layer is kind of what we touched on before as well, really looking at and owning your skills, knowledge and what you’re bringing to the table, your intention and how you’re showing up even and embodying that, not just knowing it intellectually, not just knowing, oh yeah, I’ve got skills that that are important, but actually, genuinely feeling that. And sometimes there’s internal, other internal blocks that keep us from actually feeling that, that we can get into and owning that. But when you’re when you have that piece too, and you’re able to get all three of those pieces, like imposter syndrome just goes away, because imposter syndrome is just it’s just a mental construct. It’s just this idea we have in our heads of how we think we need to be and how we think people need to react to us. And when you dig into that and let it fall apart, then you’re just showing up, however, like, with a certain intention and how you want to be. You’re just, hey, this is just me, and this is what I’m bringing and that’s it. And there’s, there’s no, like, there’s no room for impostor syndrome anymore. It’s, it just doesn’t, it doesn’t fit. It does. There’s, he’s left the room, it’s gone. And it might still come up a little bit, but it just means, Oh, there’s one of these areas. Is there’s something I’m not quite seeing, and then you explore that area, and then it can be gone again.

Rob Marsh: For me, it a lot of this is based on our genetic fears, right? Because fear of rejection is literally built into our genes. 10,000 years ago, if you were rejected by the tribe, you lost family, you lost food, you lost opportunities for mating, you probably died. And because of that, we have a very healthy sense of needing to belong and and be accepted by others, just built into our genes, and anytime that we’re stepping out of the comfort zone, doing something new, doing something that’s challenging, or something where we’re putting ourselves out, maybe it’s on social media where other people are seeing us and may reject us, triggers that Very natural discussion with our brain. It’s like, Hey, you’re you’re putting yourself in jeopardy here, of all of these things that used to be real jeopardy for us, and it’s not anymore. You know, making a mistake on social media is probably not going to affect your ability to eat, or the fact that your loved ones are going to give you a hug tonight. You know, as long as it’s not some egregious, awful thing that you’re saying, you’re probably not even going to get canceled, right? So just being aware and taking a step back to think through what am I feeling, feels like a really big step towards overcoming imposter syndrome, imposter complex. But there’s maybe there’s more to more other fears that I’m not even thinking about here as well.

Brian McCarthy: That’s that’s absolutely huge, that that really does come down to a lot of the core piece of it. There can be within that, within that fear of rejection, the fear of, uh, kind of being out of the tribe, there can be different kind of core fears. This is one of the things that I got from Rhonda Britton and her wheel of fear, which is all about finding, like, the specific core fear for you so and it’s not just about like, how people will react, and, you know, my my physical safety, and where I stand in the tribe and all that stuff. And that’s 100% a part of it. And then, yeah, there can be other aspects of it too, right? It’s like and what does this say about me, if I’m kicked out of the tribe, and who I am, and what am I gonna feel, and the shame that like we’re it’s not even just the, you know, survival being the social group. There’s also just certain feelings that we are so afraid to feel of this is proof I’m a loser. This is proof I’m in confident and then I’m going to feel so much shame and worthlessness, and I don’t want to feel that, so I’m going to avoid that feeling. And that’s where the imposter syndrome pops up to help us try to avoid ever facing that and feeling that. And so that’s why another piece of and why you don’t actually have to just live with imposter syndrome forever. Sometimes it can be linked to certain fears, certain pieces of shame, certain things that happened in our past, and if we just let ourselves feel that more fully, then it loses a lot of its power. So that can kind of be another doorway out. Sometimes it’s, you know, we built up this, this fear, and we’re just so afraid to feel it, and it might be tied to something that happened, and we let ourselves feel it, and it moves through us, and to go to that other, to your other point of like, well, this is just ingrained in evolutionary Okay, yeah, and there’s a lot of people that are afraid to post on social media. At first, then after five years, they’ve been doing it and they’re no longer afraid, right? Like sometimes imposter syndrome sticks around, and sometimes it doesn’t Okay, cool. So, so you’ve learned to have this feeling of safety even as you’re posting all this stuff now. Well, do you necessarily need five years of posting to build that sense of safety that you’re okay in who you are and yourself in the standing in society, regardless of the posting. Or are there ways to look at address some of those fears that are coming up so you can get in that state before without needing five years of posting every day to get there? And that’s what I believe and have seen, is can be true. If you go deeper into that fears initially, you can start to unravel them and evaporate them. And yeah, it might still take now, instead of needing five years of posting every day to finally feel confident with it, then now you’re there in a couple of weeks.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, so much of this really comes down to just do it anyway. And I know that’s really terrible mindset advice, because there are all these blocks and the head trash that we deal with, but ultimately, the reason that we go through so many of these exercises is to allow us to just do it anyway.

Brian McCarthy: There’s a lot of value in the doing it anyway, and it can also be a bigger problem than I think a lot of people realize, because if you’ve got all this fear of what’s everyone gonna think, and I’m gonna get kicked out of the tribe and all that stuff, and then you do the thing anyway, and then you get that negative backlash, man, it’s, it can be now, now the fear got even stronger, right? You raise the bar even higher, it can be even harder to do that. So, like, if you’re not in the pro like, and also, if it’s, if the if the action, so that’s, that’s one possible detriment. And why I’m more focused on, let’s get into and release the block in the first place. So doing the action comes more naturally and easily, and it’s not a thing you even have to force yourself to do. So that’s that’s one piece of it. The other part of forcing yourself to do it anyway is sometimes you forcing yourself might be coming from a place of fear, a place of scarcity, a place of I need to do this so I fit in. So if you’re doing your outreach, you’re posting on social media from a place of fear, then you’re again feeding that fear making it strong, versus if you’re posting from that place of like I believe in this copywriting thing I’m learning about, and I’m excited to share and talk about it, even if I’m not the world’s biggest expert, I’m just sharing a thing I think is cool, and I just want to see who else is think thinks it’s cool with me, such different energies sharing from those Two different places. And if you’re sharing from the place of kind of like forcing yourself, then you can just reinforce that need to work from that place, that fear, the I need to fit in, and then like to go on what we talked about the very beginning, when people build these businesses and realize they’re not satisfied, they’re burned out, they don’t even like what they’re doing all that much. A lot of it’s because they built it from this place of forcing themselves. And I just gotta, you know, do it and like coming from fear and scarcity and having to prove themselves. So there is absolutely a place, I think for Hey, you just got to do it anyway. You just got to watch some of that alignment. And where is that action coming from? Because there is a trap of it can kind of reinforce some of the things and just make them stronger and just keep them with us, if we’re not careful in how we do that makes sense.

Rob Marsh: I want to switch our conversation just a little bit. You mentioned burnout, and I think this is a really interesting phenomena. A lot of times, people get burned out, and they don’t really realize they’re burned out, you know, they’re just tired, or they’re tired of the work, or, you know, things that are happening in their business, things just feel like they’re slow, or you’re moving through molasses, however you want to describe that. And then there’s full on burnout, where you almost don’t want to get out of bed, because, you know, whatever it is that is burning you out is, is, you know, holding you down, holding you back. So I’d love to explore this a little bit, but maybe the first question is, how do I even know if, if burnout is happening before you know it gets to the point where, I mean, I just don’t even, I can’t even look at my business anymore. I can’t even face the inbox or my calendar or whatever you know is is just causing that dread.

Brian McCarthy: That’s that’s such a good point. And for how to look at spot burnouts happening. I mean, looking at your energy levels, your excitement, one indicator can be your whole life kind of feels like an obligation, like a to do list. And you make such a good point. Like, people don’t see it coming, in part because they’ve just been in it for so long, like it’s what they know. So actually, another, like, kind of random thing, I do improv comedy as well, and that’s also a thing that I like Teach and part of my coaching, but I also perform, and I just love it. And a lot of people will do an improv comedy class or a couple, and then they realize, like, Oh, this is what feeling good is. This is what fun is. This is what joy is. And then they start to realize how much they’ve been missing it in their everyday life. So one thing is just getting out of your kind of everyday stuff and doing other things that can help you start to get that contrast of, like, you know, there’s taking a trip or doing some improv class, or, like, another client, yeah, it took a took a two week vacation, then comes back is like, Oh, I like this helped me get perspective on how much I don’t like what I’m doing right Now, and like, what’s available and what feelings are available. So one is just getting out doing other stuff, and then seeing how you feel and seeing that contrasted to how you feel on an everyday basis can be one helpful thing, and it’s just good to do anyway, because novelty and new explorations and new stuff is good for us. That’s one piece. Another piece is like, if you just wake up and feel like you start going through the to do list in your head and it’s just a non stop slog of obligations, and you’re just going through it, that can be some warning bells. If you’re looking at your day and like, hey, when when did you feel lit up? When did you feel excited? When did you enjoy what you were doing? And if you’re having trouble finding answers to those questions, that could be another sign, if you’re feeling like a sense of purpose, because you can, you can not be enjoying it that much. But man, you know where you’re going, and you know that this is a strong like a necessary piece, and you’re okay with that, like that can be beautiful. So is there a sense of purpose as well for Where are you going longer term? And like, this kind of being the thing that’s going to get you to that next thing, whether you’re clear on what that next thing is or No, but you have a strong belief in it, and you still just have a sense that this is right, that would be another thing I’d check in on. So like, check in on your sense of enjoyment, check in on your sense of purpose. Check in on is everything feeling like an obligation, or is this feeling like expansive and like it’s what you want to be doing so and you know, how much of your day and your week, are these things? These are kind of like different indicators I’d be looking at and kind of ranking different areas, along with your sense of purpose to help see, are you potentially on a road for burnout?

Rob Marsh: Let’s say I’m there, burned out. Yeah, what? What do? And I know there are a lot of copywriters that hit this point, and I think the question becomes, should I quit and do something totally different, or is there a way to get the joy back, assuming that we want to get the joy back. What do you recommend?

Brian McCarthy: I work with a lot of a lot of my clients. It’s funny, they’ll come to me like being like, I need to quit and get a new job and doing something new. And I’d say maybe half of them end up doing that, and half of them end up like, loving their work again. So there’s, yeah, I would, I’d first look at the patterns I kind of create that created the burnout and some of the internal stuff that led to it. Because otherwise, if you just go jump another thing, cool. But if these patterns repeat now you’re just gonna find another job to get burned out by, and you’re gonna keep doing this cycle. So I would definitely look at, you know, what created the burnout first, and a lot of times, what happens with my clients, and what I find is it’s, it’s due to a lot of internal processes and to how they feel about themselves and their work and their relationships with people in their work. So one example, had a client who was super burned out, and we got and it’s like, oh, the you know, company needs more we need to hire more people. We need better systems, right? It’s what you’re if you’re burned out, you’re probably pointing the fingers at all the people and things, how it’s their fault and the revenue is not good enough, and all that stuff, and then we looked more internal and of like, what how she was viewing herself in the situation, and what we found for her, big time, people pleaser, big time I need to take care of everybody else, and my own needs are on the back burner, and I’ve. Got to, like, be I got to be super responsive. No one else needs to be super responsive. But I need to holding expectations for herself that she doesn’t even have for anybody else. Feeling like, yeah, she’s got to take care of everybody else, and she’s got to make everybody else happy all the time. And so, like, really, the people pleasing thing was like, okay, cool. Let’s work through that. And that was the big thing that allowed her to then start taking bits of time off. And then as she was taking more time off, she started to get more energized again. Another thing I’ll do with clients is just schedule, like 30 minutes a week, an hour a week, to just do nothing, just let themselves do nothing, because their whole day is obligation and doing things, and this sense of, I need to do everything for everyone else. So just giving them a little period of time to just not have that starts to get some internal energy going, of like, Oh, okay. Like, okay. I can feel myself again. I can start to ask myself, What do I want here? So that was almost a little tangent, but just a little like side trick tactic people who start to use, but the other things are like, yeah, the deeper stuff around people pleasing. That’s one example. Another people realize so much of their work is like, I’ve got to they’re actually trying to prove themselves to their peers, to people in their company. It’s this, this drive to prove themselves, show that they’re good enough, show that they’re worthy, is actually what’s causing the burnout. So that’s why again, cool man, get another job. If you’re still trying to prove yourself, you’re gonna end up burned out again. So let’s, let’s deal with that deeper issue so it can be other things as well, people pleasing, proving yourself. These are kind of different, different areas, but these are some of the internal things that create the burnout. And when you look at and dismantle them from the inside, it can be such a quick shift of, you know, within couple months, couple weeks even, it’s like, oh, the burnout is gone, and I enjoy my work again, right? Like, that’s literally what I see that all the time. It’s super cool. Sometimes it takes longer, and, you know, everyone’s got their own path. And sometimes it’s like people pleasing and proving yourself. Like, sometimes you might have a lot of these different things that need to kind of get worked through and sorted out and dismantled and let go of and but those are, those are some of the inner pieces. It’s, it’s really about looking at like, well, what’s been driving you is it obligation, trying to please people, what people think of you, all this kind of stuff, and then learn to be driven from a place of more authentic expression and confidence and expansiveness and inspiration instead.

There’s probably some variety here as well. You know, I imagine if I was hired to write the same blog post over and over and over and that, I mean, it happens, right? You get a client that needs you to write about their thing, and you’ve got to figure out the 18th, 19th, 20th, different way to write about their thing, that lack of variety can can cause it as well, and that might be an extreme example. But if all you’ve written is blog posts, maybe it’s time to change it up. And, you know, add some new products to to your writing, or if you have been writing in a niche, as we talked about earlier, and you just you’re seeing the same kind of thing over and over, maybe it’s time to switch that up a little bit and play around in another niche, or with a different kind of client, or with a different kind of copy or voice. Or, you know, there’s so many different ways that we can change up our businesses, but it’s really easy to get into that rut, and then two years, three years, where you’ve been doing the same old, same old, it just it doesn’t light you up the way that it used to. So I don’t know that you’ve got all of the answers on, how do we keep things fresh, but the and obviously, this is why we take vacations. This is, you know, why we try to have hobbies, although oftentimes a lot of copywriters, our hobby is copywriting. It is marketing, right? And reading the books about the stuff, or going to the events about the stuff. And so even your hobbies start to impede on your work and and your well being. So variety feels like a big missing piece here too.

Brian McCarthy: Yeah, that’s a great point. And yeah, sometimes that can just be a signal for like, hey, maybe it’s time to level up. Maybe it’s time to try something new. Add a different type of writing into your system. Start, you know, be step up to an editor. Do that, move into a different, higher level role. And I’ll also say there’s, there’s also ways to look at how to make that monotonous work more interesting for you. So I had a client who was in that exact situation, and he was writing these scripts, and he’s just like, I’ve been writing these scripts for years, like I’m so sick of it, and I get that was part of what made me leave copywriting. Like, I’m just like, Man, I just, I just don’t want to do it anymore. I used to be nerd out to it so much. Now I just didn’t care. But you can look at like, and this can be very for individuals of like, okay, but what could make it interesting for you? So me and this client started to explore that and play with these different ideas and what that might look like, and what he found he likes to be, like, intellectually challenged, like he wants it to be hard, so he would like make it hard on himself. I forget exactly what he did, but that was the point. Like he was like, I’m like, what would it look like for this to be more challenge? Like, he’d like give himself different challenges to try to do, to like, write it in this different way that he’d never do before, that he initially thought his clients wouldn’t like, but then it ended up being the most popular video they ever did, and it was just, like, totally out of left field. So he’s like, How can I actually make this more difficult and more challenging became like, the thing of inspiration for him. And there’s, you know, there’s a million other ways, and I’d say it’s probably different for each individual of like, well, how could you make that fun for you? I was also thinking of like, you know, again, fellow of improv comedy. So it could be like, Man, what if you just, like, took on a character and start writing from this character, just to see what they express, and how that can be, right? That could be like, a totally different, you know, just thing to explore, and that, like, again, that would be on a very kind of personal case by case basis. Of, like, what would it take to make this monotonous thing you’ve done a million times kind of fun and interesting and a little bit exciting, and, you know, let yourself explore that a little bit, instead of immediately. And, you know, maybe you know, maybe you find something, maybe you don’t, and then it’s time to move on to something else. But I think it’s definitely a question in an area worth exploring a bit before just being like, well, I guess I’ll just quit this and become an Uber driver or whatever.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, as you’re talking I’m thinking about musicians who have that one hit. So my, one of my favorite bands is the Barenaked Ladies. Almost 30 years ago, they have a hit. You know, if I had a million dollars, I bet you that they have probably played that song at least. You know, at all of their shows, the fans demand it. So 200 performances, 30 years, you know, we’re talking six, 7000 times. And and, of course, they’ve got to be sick of the song, like, when you when you’ve done something that many times. And so that band in particular, like, they changed it up a little bit. You know, there’s, they changed the verses, they changed the words and the live performances. But also, there’s, they’re not only doing that song right? They’ve written 20 albums since then. They’ve, you know, done all kinds of different explorations into different kinds of music and and so they’re keeping it fresh. So yeah, while they, the fans demand that they keep going back to that one thing, there’s all of this other stuff that’s happening around that. So there’s a copy writing lesson there. Maybe I’ll drop this into an email to my list as I’m talking it through. But you know, the way to keep it fresh isn’t necessarily quitting, and it’s not necessarily stopping doing the thing that is making you the money and that your clients are demanding, but it’s adding all of these other pieces that allow you to still explore and enjoy the thing that you love doing in the first place?

Brian McCarthy: Totally. Yeah, and it just, I thought of a quick like tool that might be helpful for people of if they’ve got, you know, okay, I’m gonna wake up tomorrow and write these emails that I’ve written 100 times if, if your goal isn’t write the email, but it’s, have fun writing the email, like, that’s the rule, if you’re not having fun, stop and then see what it takes, and see what that’s like and and have that be the goal, and see what comes from it, instead of, you know, just just slogging through and checking another box. Yeah? And I think that’s, that’s a great point of, like, they barricade ladies found a way to make it fun for them cool. Take that for yourself. How can you make this fun for yourself?

Rob Marsh: I like that, and I’m going to see if I can apply that to you know, how do I have fun while doing my taxes or keeping my books? The things that I really hate about my business? How can I make it fun? Probably pay somebody else to do it is, is the final answer?

Brian McCarthy: There’s certain things that you’re just gonna hit a wall, or it’s just like, Nah, man. It’s just, ain’t it? Yeah, that’s not.

Rob Marsh: I’ve never, I’m never gonna be the tax happy copywriter, I guess.

Brian McCarthy: So expectations there too, because it’s not about, like, how do I make taxes the most fun. It’s like, okay, well, you probably maybe that might be a bit high, but can you at least make it like, not suck, if that’s okay, how do I make this just like, Fine, you know, finds a big increase from dread and misery, you know?

Rob Marsh: This is going to be a weird question. But I’d love to see how you, you know, work through this. But if there was a copywriter mindset, what is that? What would that be?

Brian McCarthy: Oh, I like this. A copywriter mindset, to me, would be full ownership of what you’re doing, who you are, what you bring to the table, and a belief in yourself and your value that comes from you, it could be informed by mentors and people around you and you know and what you’ve seen and learned in the industry and everything, but ultimately, it’s it’s you taking ownership of that, and rather than being dependent on what other people believe a copywriter should be, what you’ve heard a copywriter should be, again, that can inform you or other other people’s standards of what, what, what needs to be done and delivered and all this stuff, again, that informs you, but ultimately, like you’re Creating this road and owning your value fully yourself. Does that make sense?

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Brian, there’s been really interesting discussion. If somebody wants to reach out to you or connect to you, follow you in the things that you’re doing and talking about and helping with, where should they

go?

Brian McCarthy: McCarthymindsetcoaching.com, I’ve also got, if you like the imposter syndrome talk, which copywriters tend to if you go McCarthy mindset coaching.com/imposter, I’ve got an e book that shows you how some of my clients overcame imposter syndrome, goes a bit deeper to some of the stuff that we talked about. So that could be immediately valuable. And then, yeah, I’ve also got, you know, loads of case studies and stuff on my website, a lot of which are copywriters and showing how helped, how they’ve worked through other areas, like procrastination, self doubt, all that stuff.

Rob Marsh: I’ll link to both of those in the show notes so people can find them pretty easily. And I appreciate your time. Brian, thanks. 

Brian McCarthy: You bet this is great.

Thanks Brian for walking through a bunch of the mindset issues that hold us back. I’ve heard marketing guru Perry Marshall call this stuff head trash and I really like that way of framing this stuff. It often is trash that is keeping us from moving forward, but it’s very real and needs to be dealt with so we can move on.

If you want to follow Brian, you can find him at McCarthyMindsetCoaching.com. And you can get his free ebook on imposter complex at mccarthymindsetcoaching.com/imposter. And of course you should check out that old episode I mentioned as we were just starting out with Tanya Geisler about imposter complex if you are struggling with confidence or that nagging voice inside your head that is telling you that you’re not ready, or that you’re a fake, or that you’re not qualified. There’s a lot of good stuff on that episode which I’ve linked to in the show notes.

If mindset is a struggle for you, I don’t want to miss this opportunity to mention several episodes of the podcast we’ve done’ with mindset coach Linda Perry. You can find those on our website or just google The Copywriter Club and Linda Perry and they should pop up… we’ve covered a lot of ground with Linda and those episodes are also worth adding to your list.

Early on in this interview I mentioned that you don’t need to wait for permission to be a copywriter. If you write copy for clients, then you are a copywriter. However, I don’t want to minimize the actual writing chops you need to have in order to be a copywriter. You have to be able to deliver results. You have to know how to persuade and sell. You need to be able to write legibly and clearly and help your clients solve real marketing problems. You can just write a blog post and call yourself a copywriter. I mean, you could, but you’re faking it. If that’s where you are in your journey, focus on picking up those skills. We have a bunch of resources in The Copywriter Club to help you do that… maybe the best place to start is The Copywriter Underground—you can learn more about what that includes at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu-2

And of course you should check out the How to Write Emotional Copy Masterclass that I mentioned at the top of the show… you can find out more about that game-changing workshop at thecopywriterclub.com/emotion