Because we never seem to finish the thing. We've been talking 10 or 12 years, and it's my fault, because the person I'm working with, Daniel Sinti, Daniel gets everything coded, and then it takes me forever to get to something. And so we're like three years off of when we did the last search. So we'll get there eventually, I hope.

Well, you know, you actually just chirp me up a little because I have four meta-analysis. I'm trying to get published right now. I've been working for about eight months. So your 12 years makes me feel better about my eight months.

Well, I'm not feeling too good about it. It

makes me feel good. All right. Amy, Liz, Joe, do you want to add to that? Yeah,

I want to come back to the explicit instruction and kind of build on something that two things that Steve meant or commented on. So on the explicit instruction, you know, a big part of that, we're all familiar, right, with the gradual release of responsibility. And the time to then give the kids the chance to do the writing and to practice and get guided practice is that sort of we do it stage. But what I see happening to up in is teachers grab the first part, the I do it, the explicit, they model, they explain, but then they don't provide enough time for practice. So that's one thing. I also want to, though, pick up on the word this sort of explicit versus implicit. And, you know, I do believe that sharing with students models of good writing, not just generic, here's a great book. Why don't you write a book like this, right? But but really focusing in if you're trying to teach kids how to use transition words or how to write a good topic sentence, show them some sample mentor models. But again, where I think we we don't go far enough is we just show them to the kids. And then we figure out they're going to, we think they're going to analyze it and figure out how to emulate it. And it's that explicit time to say, all right, let's look at these models. Let's analyze it. What did that writer do? Now, let's see if you can try it in your writing. So, but the fact of the marriage, we all learn by emulating other other people. And that's why the more we read, the better we get at our writing. So you need that combination of exposure to see how others write, but also explicit instruction. That includes lots of practice to write.

I would add to that, I think this is one part of SRSD, the decades, the long research supported program that Stephen Karen have developed. But thinking aloud is a huge part of good writing instruction. And I often see teachers really struggle with that. In my university classes, I say you need to stand in front of the mirror and practice this. And we have students practicing it in class. And it seems really hard for them to think aloud, kind of those hidden things that are going on in the mind of a writer that students need to see actively modeled scaffolded. So the things that writers do to get started, the things that writers do to draw on strategies, they know the things that writers do when they get stuck. And these are all things in SRSD, right? But they're very difficult teachers find that a little awkward, particularly, I think novice teachers, to do. And it's really important because like you were saying, Joan, if you kind of skip that stage of scaffolding the writing process, you miss out on kind of the meat of where students can really learn to take it up on their own. Yeah.

I completely agree 100% with everything or what just out there. So I'm surprised Lynn doesn't have something to say about the spelling test, to be

honest. I'll get my time, I'm sure.

You have a question specifically for spelling, so you are coming up. So, okay. Despite the fact that Lynn is not yet spoken and she is coming up, the next question is for Joan. Although I thought about giving those questions to Lynn too, to be honest. And that is what is the current state of writing instruction in schools? Is there anything you think that we really need to improve?

We need to improve all of it. We need to have more of it. You know, I was very engaged when reading first came out, was a lead trainer in our state. And well, I think it's wonderful what came out of the National Reading Panel and all the efforts then. And now, one of the things that I saw happening is when, so when I left my work at Landmark School in 98, I've been going into schools and districts ever since. So I see a lot of this like in the trenches. And I think whatever writing, a lot of whatever writing was happening before 2000, a lot of it got thrown out because people were trying to find more time for a literacy block, but it was all about reading. Add to that that there's just, there's nobody's been aware of the research. So I think there's probably less writing going on than before. And much of what is going on is an approach that looks at writing as it's a natural thing. And if we just let kids write about what they like, you know, they'll magically figure out how to write. So I don't see enough writing going on either during the literacy block and not as well as in content classrooms. A lot of my work is in adolescent literacy. And teachers just avoid writing. Some of it is the teachers are afraid to write themselves. So how could you teach something you don't like? They don't know how. There is so little professional development, I stop I'm seeing that start to change. And so there's not enough of it. What what there is is just very sketchy people grab things that have been around forever. The six traits this thing that and it's like, yeah, the other thing I'd like to say is I believe as which is true as it relates to teaching comprehension. You know, I think when we teach phonics, yes, you do need programs because you need the materials, right? But but if we're really going to teach comprehension and integrate it into subject aerial learning, then it's the teacher's knowledge about how to effectively teach strategies, let's say, or show kids how to inference using the text they're reading in science and social studies in history. And I really feel like after grade three, a lot of the writing instruction needs to be integrated while we teach science and history and math and everything else. So and I don't see any of that. So what whatever little bit about writing is happening, it's just in the ELA class. And I see people scrambling to find what's the best program that we should bring into the ELA block. And I don't think a program is a solution. I truly believe teachers need to have the background knowledge on how to integrate writing at writing about what you're reading, you know, writing, gosh, even sentence work, you don't need a program with lessons that dictate what you should say to kids. Just learn how you sentence combining. It's such a simple thing and you can use it anywhere. So I'm kind of a little all over the place with this, but that's my initial reaction to your question. I'd love to hear what others have to say what they're seeing in the schools as well.

I have something on that. What I mean, I agree, of course, everything I'm learning a lot, by the way, just listening to you all. But one thing I did want to touch on and what Joan was saying about the classroom, when I go into schools and coach schools and watch writing lessons, I do notice certain phenomena that are sort of across the board, wherever I go, and I do travel the world and do this. One of them is that teachers don't model writing quite as often as they should. So there are lots of programs out there that will give you these resources and it's power points, and they're flashing up onto the screen and then students are supposed to write in response to that. In my view, teachers actually writing, physically writing, on a board, in front of students is to writing development, what teachers reading to students is to reading development. You have a captive audience and you've got these children looking at this example of a fully developed lexicon and fully developed handwriting. You need to be looking at that all the time and watching a teacher write on the board. That's a tiny tweak that I think over time makes a big difference. And I say I think over time, because I haven't seen any studies on that, but it's also my job to talk about tiny tweaks that are likely to get a better result and show up in your data. So yeah, more teacher writing, really, really important. The second thing about spelling lists, and I think we've all been talking about that too, is one of the the maxims I have, is that the best spelling list is a book. So whatever book you're studying to do with the knowledge rich curriculum that I hope you're applying is the best spelling list. And that touches on Steve's catalyst, the first catalyst is knowledge. So yeah, that's what I've got just now.

I just want to jump and say that I hear a lot of connection with what you're saying right now, and what I heard in the roundtable I had on comprehension, just in that I keep hearing people say the writing needs to fit the text that are being looked at in class, that it shouldn't be an isolated thing. For example, maybe I shouldn't be writing poems in my writing class and reading books about Norse mythology in my reading class.

Well, you could write poems about Norse mythology. I mean, there are lots of ways to integrate, to integrate knowledge, but I also talk about these things called orphan words, orphan sentences, orphan paragraphs, and they're orphans because they don't really have any family connections. And as we know, words exist in networks. And if you're writing about what you're learning, you're going to get a better deal on both sides in that you'll develop your writing and you'll develop your knowledge, your content knowledge. So orphan words, I used to do this in my own practice. When I talked to children who were trying to teach them to spell a word or write a sentence or do a paragraph, I would just do stuff about my dog, because I like my dog, right? And he's great. And I like talking about him. But at some point, I realized that this isn't building anything here. These are just orphans. So even that week of, if you're in your scope and sequels, you're doing CK, and you're learning about birds, maybe choose chick, you know, over thick, right? And even that, just that little bit of consideration, I think it would be helpful for teachers.