Well,

again, this is something that has grown steam, but it has a surprising velocity. In your opinion, what has paved the way for the LGBTQ plus community to grow with such veracity? You're

right about that, Tim. I've never seen a movement grow with such speed. I mean, it's literally changing the landscape of our country. We know that we're in the midst of some sort of revolution, a sexual revolution of some sort, but we don't the ramifications of everything until the dust settles from this cosmic quake that we're experiencing. While there are many factors that have been at work to create this movement, I think my initial thoughts would be obviously Pride Month itself has contributed as it's mounted support through the decades since its origin. I would also say other contributing factors. It's the perfect storm. I mean, you've got all the main pieces of society rallying behind this movement. So you have the entertainment industry and you hear about the LGBTQ community. It shows up in music, Hollywood films. I can remember when Brokeback Mountain came out. I mean, that was a big film, but everything about the film through the music, through the storyline, it was not so much interested in what is truth, but basically making our emotions softened to the experience that people have, which I understand that, but we also have to remember what our worldview teaches as Christians. I think another aspect is a liberal academia. You know, when you think of like universities, it's astounding how much of the woke, you know, philosophy has penetrated that realm. Big Corp, for instance, you mentioned Target or the Dodgers. We've seen this all over the place with big corporations trying to show their support for basically the LGBTQ plus community, in particular. Media, we can see it on your ultra left-wing news outlets. And even more so, you're seeing it show up on conservative outlets. I mean, it's really that influential. Politics, I mean, ever since Obergefell with the legalization of same-sex marriage in 2015. Think public education. I talked about kind of your college institutions, but even more so, think about your public school systems. You have lots of growth in the homeschool movement because people don't trust that they can send their kids to school without being indoctrinated in this way. And then, of course, there's social media, Tim, which I really believe is the biggest instigator and propeller of this movement. Yeah,

definitely. Well, maybe we gave people a little bit of a heart attack on purpose, maybe by the title of this episode. And so I want you to kind of concede at the outset that your theological position hasn't changed, but what has changed? That's correct, Tim. I mean, I want

everybody to know that it's your fault to subject me to the cruelty of having people wonder whether or not I've actually theologically changed, but it was good clickbait, so I went with you on that. No, my position has not changed at all theologically regarding sexual ethics and what the Bible would teach there. I'm 100% where I've always been. I'll even state it. I believe the Bible teaches that sex is reserved for marriage between a man and a woman, and there's only two genders, male and female. So while my position hasn't changed theologically, it has developed in the way that I think about how to contextualize it practically. And so there's a theological position, but there's our ministry position, which contains our philosophy of ministry. And that philosophy includes our theology and the outworking of it. And so I've wrestled for a long time here, Tim. I've wrestled wondering how can the church reach people within the LGBTQ community yet without compromising our belief? So my heart, it goes out to those who are wrestling through various identity issues related to their sexuality, but my head can't compromise the truth I see in God's Word. However, we still have a responsibility to connect God's Word to people's hearts, even people within the LGBTQ community.

So again, you were very clear, your theological position hasn't changed, which I'm sure, again, that helps relieve several people. But can you expound more on what you mean by your thinking has evolved regarding the contextualization of your theological beliefs to reach people or to influence people or people that are influenced by the LGBTQ community?

Unpack this a little bit more for us. Sure. Okay. Well, here's some thoughts. First, I've switched up in my preaching in the presentation style in that I'm not trying to preach to the choir. That is, I can get up and I can speak to straight people and heterosexuals can hear me and they can hear me talk about what the Bible has to say and the truth of it. And I can get amens from Christians in that way. But if we're trying to reach people who are engaged in the LGBTQ community and they show up at our church and we're not focused on reaching them, but getting amens from the choir, from the audience, so to speak. Well, we might, you know, give confidence to our flock that we believe what the Bible has to say, but we don't give confidence to people within the LGBTQ community that we can shepherd them through their insecurities, through their questions. So they hear the truth, but they leave feeling shamed, unloved, and perhaps unwanted. Anybody can get amens from the crowd, Tim. But can we speak without compromise and yet see LGBTQ people return to the church. And that's what I would want. So this means that my ministry approach is to start with the person and then bring them to my theological point. So that would look like this for anybody that's engaged in a teaching kind of ministry of the Bible, that you think about the potential that you've got somebody who is part of the LGBTQ community, and they've showed up at your church, and they're not a believer. And you want that person to come back. Yet, you don't want to compromise what the Bible has to say. How are you going to, you know, put that conversation together? Well, it's going to be really important that we can say statements like, you know, I can't imagine what it would feel like if you're out here, you know, you've come to church today, and I'm sure that took a lot. You might have had some fears wondering if you're going to be rejected. We want you to know that we're glad that you're here. We stand by what the Bible has to say on this matter, but we want to start with you as a person and let you know that you were loved by God, that he will forgive you and he will show you how to live in holiness. But can I just take some time to show you why the Bible teaches what it teaches? And will you kind of stick with me in this conversation? I think if they sense that we're trying to build a relational bridge to their heart, then the chances of them returning are better. So, you know, if we start with the theological point, you know, for instance, homosexuality is a sin, then we may put the person on the defensive. And so I remember, you know, Esther was our English bulldog and we had heartworm pills we were supposed to give her. And I would drop that pill in front of her and she'd walk up and she dismissed it. I mean, you could stick a pile of manure in front of her and she'll consume it. Right. But a heartworm pill, God forbid. But when I would take some hickory farm sausage, cut it, slice a little hole in the sausage, put the pill in there. Guess what? Esther would come and devour that pill. Well, I guess in some ways I'm saying, Tim, the heartworm pills represents the truth and the hickory sausage represents the love. And you've got some churches, they're so focused on giving people hickory sausage, but they're not giving people what their heart needs, the heartworm pill. And you got other people that are so focused on giving people a heartworm pill that they can't digest it because it's so mean spirit in the way that people present it. So I think it's important that as we share the gospel, we're looking to build bridges, not burn them. So that's a big step in my contextualization of how I'm thinking about how to present the message. But another influence, Tim, has been Mark Yarhouse. I've read several of his books, and I appreciate his approach. He's a professor in psychology at Wheaton, and he's the director of gender and sexuality of their institute there. But he's revered both inside Tim and outside Christian circles for his research and his approach, especially relating to gender dysphoria. Some of his books are Understanding Gender Dysphoria, Sexual Identity and Faith,, understanding sexual identity, and many more. But his writings on gender dysphoria have been especially helpful. In fact, studies show, Tim, that a quarter of Gen Zs are confused about their sexual identity, and that's pretty staggering. That also means a quarter of parents are struggling potentially with how to help their kids. That is, if their kids have informed them about what they're wrestling through. So, Yarhaus, he kind of lays out three frameworks, an integrity framework, a disability framework, and a diversity framework. And these frameworks, Tim, are ways that we sort of view the LGBTQ world. And so you have the integrity framework and they just see things as black and white. And they only look at this through a moral lens. And that can become problematic because people don't feel like they're seen as people who are hurting and confused. But it stays true to the word in that it recognizes the context for sex. The second would be the disability framework that recognizes that everybody has disabilities, straight or, you know, gay. But with these disabilities, it just acknowledges that there's something torn inside of somebody who lives within a male body that feels like a female. And then there's the diversity framework where you kind of got a soft side, but then a real rigid side, which would be, hey, you know what? We need to overthrow all categories of traditional marriage and family. And so this is where you're seeing all these pronouns come from. Let's just celebrate diversity. And they're just trying to topple everything that we've known. Well, interestingly enough, Yarhouse shares that a lot of times in the church, we just take this through the integrity lens and we miss the opportunity to minister. He says, and I quote, can Christians who uphold the integrity lens find anything of value in the disability or diversity lenses, even if not prepared to adopt every application of them? While we have to be careful here to avoid sacrificing biblical authority in this effort, I think we can. I would say that, for example, from the disability lens, we can appreciate the compassion that is present. We can appreciate being reminded of the reality of Genesis 3, which has clear implications throughout scripture and thus important to imply, so that a Christian perspective is characterized by compassion and empathy as people explore ways to cope with more intense gender dysphoria when it is present and as young people find themselves drawn to emerging gender identities about which Christians may voice concern. Is there anything to be gained from the diversity lens? This is by far the most challenging lens for me as a Christian since it is often applied by others in such a way that it dismisses male-female sexual difference as merely oppressive and negligible. However, what the diversity lens does is create a sense of identity and community for those who suffer from gender dysphoria and for those who are part of that trans-trend group. While I disagree with the answers typically offered within the diversity lens, I have to admit that it is the only lens really attempting to specifically meet the longing for identity and community for those with gender dysphoria or are otherwise under the transgender umbrella. So I like what he says there because this is why so many people with these issues are going to the LGBTQ plus community because their identity is affirmed and they have a community to belong to. While we can't affirm these multiple identities, we can't affirm a broader identity that they are created in the image of God. And we can also be a place of community and love where we go on a journey with them. And so I think that we have to figure out what it looks like with people struggling from these identity issues to find a community with us in the church yet, whereby we don't compromise either, but we call them up to live out Christian convictions. You're

exactly right.