and I think I think what you're saying maps well and even if you look at Buddhism there's a complexification like you said Varyana Tantra it's like it's coming back and embracing all the form it's coming back and like actually you know embracing everything embracing sex and bracing alcohol embracing every because it's all part of the same thing it's all part of reality so I think it maps well with with that too so then I guess one more thing that I would like to explore is this is where really kind of grounding this whole theoretical approach grounding it in practices and you talk about having practices on four levels maybe you can little impact that a little bit and maybe even bring bring in what are your practices what are your own practices how do you embody emergences in your life

yeah so yeah the four levels are based on these four levels of complexity matter life mind and culture because that's what we are that's what the universe is made out of but that's what we are certainly made out of and so we can engage intentionally and consciously in sort of trying to maximize the potency of all of those levels you could think of it that way so we have a material level a kind of vital biological level a neuronal you know reflex emotional level and a conceptual cultural level all going on simultaneously and you know I was very influenced by Lehman Pascal's notion of the integrative surplus model of spirituality as he frames it right that we have all these subsystems to our our body and to our culture as well and we we have that sense of the spiritual intensity when we are most maximally integrating those various subcomponents of ourselves and we generate the sort of surplus integration of the surplus cohesion and that is like that's what when we're when we're in those flow states right or when we're feeling this like intensity or the energy of things we're really harmonized very much in our our different parts so that's one way of thinking about the emergent ecology of practices is is trying to integrate all of these levels of our being our material biological mental and cultural so yeah you you quoted that section where I talk about trying to keep it together trying to value the sort of continual war against chaos right and I think you know this level of spiritual practice was really popularized in a big way with the work of Jordan Peterson not so long ago you know clean your room keep you know that sort of thing there's something that I think also tends to be the case in nihilistic societies is like we start to lose touch with these things we start to give up we start to like let it go but not in a good way right not in that sort of spiritual way of like learning to let go we let it go because we just become irresponsible because we be we yeah we give up and that's the nihilism taking hold of things and so I think it's very spiritually insightful for people to realize no like don't give up don't let that go keep it together clean your room you know maintain order in your existence because in an emergency framework that's the basis of reality is like matter being structurally sound you know coming together forming these holes right we need to value order and the principle of entropy is pervasive and will always be doing whatever it can to sort of like make things fall apart so at our foundational level we should be agents shepherds of order trying to maintain things build things cohere things make them sound and structurally stable and so that's a spiritual practice and you know I give lists of multiple versions of this in the in the book but I'll just name a few here for time's sake and then so that's kind of a matter level practice but we also have a life level set of practices and at the life level now you've got this whole aspect to your your the coherency of your living organism and so I tend to think of this as vitality right like there's that feeling that you get when you're working out let's say or doing something strenuous or you know there's something there and you're feeling this the flow of energy and blood through your body and your your you feel empowered you know you feel like you can take on the world sort of thing that's the sort of vitality that I think is at the core of our our essence is living beings and we should we should be intentional about trying to cultivate that those kinds of experiences so anything from yeah exercise to exertion to to you know eating healthy maintaining the the biological integrity of the organism is crucial and so yeah that's that's a core aspect to that level at the mind level we're talking