I can't I've been looking forward to this, to bringing you on the podcast was so long for you to compliment the podcast like you did. It means the world to me, brother. You know, especially coming from you and, and that's an interesting concept how you started off in sports and you're not you don't like gambling. So that's that's incredible. How what, you know, let's talk about how you know how much you loved sports growing up. Um, you know, where'd you grow up? And what was uh, what sports did you like? And, and then how what was your first if you could remember, what was your first introduction to gambling?

Well, I was, and I came from a very, very strict background, Orthodox Jews, I don't know if people know what an Orthodox Jew, they cannot do anything for 25 hours, sundown to darkness, sundown Friday night to darkness, Saturday night, no phones, no TV, you can't cook in an oven. It's like the Amish. They're totally into their family. They go to synagogue. They're part of the community. It's a beautiful concept. And that's the way I grew up. She was a math teacher and that's where my love of numbers came from because when she used to tutor people and she would use to tutor them when I was you know, mid 50s late 50s us five I'm crawling on the, she told me to be quiet, and she would tutor people for a dollar an hour with $2 an hour. dollar and $2 an hour in the bank. And it grew after 50 years. And she was very, very thrifty. But she taught me how to tell time at four years old. So she would bring me into a store and she says, my son can tell time. What time is it? And I'd go five after four and they pinched my cheek and they go, oh, he's such a small little boy. She also taught me that there were eight Ivy League schools. The Ivy League schools, she must've taught me that when I was seven because the Ivy League was formed officially in 1958. So in her mind, I'm a first born, you know, a mini genius because I could tell time at four, and I'm going to an Ivy League school. And that is the farthest thing from the truth because in the history of this country, in this country, including gang members, including any group you want, terrorists, I hated school more than anybody. I knew the first day in school when the last day of school was. The only thing I liked was recess and maybe lunch. My favorite subject was dismissal. I would sit there and I would daydream all day. So all these guys that go on podcasts, they're educated. One has a master's degree, they all have bachelor degrees, they went to school, you know, educated. Their father brought them to the racetrack, their one father bet with a bookie. Well, I wasn't, I wasn't, so my parents wouldn't know what a casino is. They wouldn't know what a casino is, they wouldn't know what a point spread is till the day they die. You know, and I just had no background at all, nothing. So I love sports, because my father took me to a game when I was eight years old to a Yankee game against Kansas City, and it was a double header. And my father, he wasn't a baseball fan, but he took me to the game because that's what fathers did. And that green grass, I'll never forget it, that big stadium I fell in love. And the game, the only time my father lived till 99, the only time my father ever lied to me ever was after the first game, it was a double header. It was 14 innings. It wasn't long in those days, because there wasn't two minute commercial breaks. I think for 14 innings, the game may have been two hours and minutes, three hours maybe, but my poor father had to stay for another five innings. So I said, oh, I can't wait for the second game. He said, oh, no, no. When the game goes 14 innings, they cancel because the players are too tired. Oh, all right, Pop. But I told my God, we got to do this. So he said, well, we'll do it once a year. And I always I used to have scheduled double headers scheduled. So I would look and I picked a scheduled double header every year, one a year, I would look at the weather forecast for five days before praying it wouldn't rain. And I couldn't understand why a team would give up two games for the price of one. I was nine years old. I asked everybody. Nobody knew. Really. Nobody was really knowledgeable about sports. They read the paper. But you know, I mean, other than the World Series, Yankee Stadium was not full by any means. You know, sports teams, a million dollar attendance was good in those days. now obviously you get less than two million, it's a disaster. So it was a whole different ballgame. And I just, I, my father started bringing me the sports section of the times, I'd go to camp, and he'd send me this, and all I would do is read that sports section. And it was just, the only validation I got was that because I was bad in school. I was smart for the first three or four grades, but then after that, kids get smarter. They open a book, you know, they listen in class. And I'm only thinking about the Yankees and there was no Mets. Well, there's been the Mets in 62. And I'm thinking about the Giants. And I'm thinking about Johnny and Nitus. And my mind just full with sports. couldn't think of anything else. And I would daydream all day. And I also was a little, I wasn't a bad kid, but I obviously I needed a little riddling and I had a little ADD. I was so focused on that. And so the school was a little worried because I really wasn't concentrating and I was, you know, I would take tests and I would be considered, you know, on the brighter side. I don't know if that's true, but they were worried and my mother was pulling her hair out of beloved son. He's not doing anything and, but I just hated school and I only thought about sports day and night.

Did you play sports at all? Or was it just watching sports as a fan?

Well, we didn't obviously, I went to a Yeshiva, a Hebrew day school. Hebrew subjects in the morning, English subjects in the afternoon, long days. None of this nine to two business, you know? None of this nine to eight 30 to four 30. So when I got to high school, that's another story. We used to go from nine to six 15. If I had to go one day from nine to six 15 now, I would just faint. So those days was so long, it was incredible. But public school, you guys went from nine to two, eight 30 to one 30. I mean, my day was shot in school. And of course I wasn't getting anything out of it. I wasn't paying attention. I didn't even know what was going on. I just was just thinking about sports day and night. That's all I could think about. So

how did that so in the school did you did? Were there organized sports? Did the kids play baseball? Yeah, well, I'm sorry, I got

off the topic. Yeah, but because we were only a class of like 2122, there was just gym, but we didn't have a team or anything. But I was going to go to a high school that had a very good basketball team. They were in what they call the MJSHL. I don't know if they're still around today. There were a school of like eight or nine Yeshivas, Hebrew Day schools, and they were in a league. So naturally this was, I went to all, I couldn't wait to see the players. And I was so enthusiastic that the seniors on the team, I was only a freshman, but you know, was kind of like the, I would talk about sports and I'd sound like a whiz kid. Because sports, I only knew sports. I couldn't add three, well, I couldn't add three and three. I couldn't spell cat and dog. So they like, this guy is interesting. He's cute, he's this. So to make a long story short I was the youngest manager in the history of my high school, Yeshiva University High School, as a sophomore. So I was in on the huddles. I was in the locker room. I mean, I was not good. I mean, I couldn't, I could play a little but nothing at that level. So I was part of the team. And then of course my marks were so bad that I couldn't be the in my junior year. That was the end of that because my marks were bad. I failed a couple of courses and all that, but I went to high school. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. I don't want. So anyway, being at this thing, at this thing. So now I wanted to get out of the house I wanted a little freedom and I also wanted to go to Ranger and Nick games. So I figured if I went to the school, there was one yeshiva that had a dormitory. Luckily that's the Hebrew day school slash yeshiva my father went to and his father went to. It was a hard one to get in. They had 130 kids the class. 40, in those days, 40 or 45 would get into Ivy League schools. The kids were really smart. There was stringent things to get in. Somehow my father got me in. I was just completely overmatched and I knew it right away, but I liked it so much because I was out of the house and I can go to Ranger and Nick games. After your freshman year, there was no curfew. So I bought Ranger season tickets with another guy, sat in the upper deck, I think it was a dollar 50. Now I had a $20 or now instead of included food, but I also worked on the side with kids, younger kids in my synagogue. So I was making 40 dollars a week, not bad.

Yeah.

So I had a little money I always said my parents wouldn't give me anything believe me. And I'd go to range of games and Nick games and then I was with, you know, a roommate and a couple of guys in school he says you know, you can bet on these games. I said, yeah. I said, who do you bet with? A bookie. I said, a bookie. What's a bookie? So now I'm in 10th grade and they're telling me this stuff. And I said, my God, I don't have to go to school. I know all the winners. It's easy. It's easy. So I said, well, Bookie. So we found the street Bookie and the first bet I ever made him I think was a $20 bet. I wanted the next game I went to collect it. He said, I bet the opposite side and I owe him $20. So right away, I said, oh, this isn't good. Now I suddenly realized, wait a minute. So now I said to myself, you know what? I didn't give him the $20. Then I said to myself, you know what? I got to find a real bookie. So my roommate, he said, I know a bookie back home. He came from New Hampshire. I said, huh. said it was towards, you know, the Rangers were in the playoffs now. He said, well, wait till next year. So sure enough, junior year, 1967 comes back. And I said, I've been following the lines in the paper. They had it in the post, by the way, the post from those days, they had handicappers in those days. Groves, Larry Merchant. I said oh I got a handful of winners but I'm I can't afford it. I'm only going to make my best bet he says who do you like? Packers were coming off the Super Bowl I swear to you I can't make this up check the record books they were the Super Bowl defending chair and they were playing at home to the Lions and the Lions were loaded and Green Bay I think Star was hurt or something whatever maybe he was playing but the Packers were really banged up was the opening day and the game was pick them in the paper I said Packers pick them what are they giving away so I told my friend go to the phone and bet and bet he the lines close said these are the lines. So they only want to bet the backers because I can't afford to bet me 10 bucks. He says you know you got to lay 11 to 10. So the level Oh yeah, why because it's a juice. And then I'll win it. He goes back, he comes back, he says, you're not gonna believe this. The game is a half a point, Green Bay. Half a point, now how could there be, I'm asking you, how could there be a half a point? Because there was no overtime in those days. There were ties. There were ties. There's still ties today in overtime, but they're rare. Yeah.

Half

a point, what's the difference? So what? Final score, 1717. Welcome to game. So I said, Well, it's all right. And you know, then I bet we'd bet a couple of games and I'd win but you know you go to any dorm in college with a line of NBA games or NFL games. These guys are going to just grab you because this is easy. And they're going to bet you five. They might bet up RLA God. They would expect it with us. Oh, I'll win all. You know, for a kid in high school or college, you look at the games. They're easy. It's so easy. You know, they see a team three and another team, you know, and they go, Oh, they're way better free. They'll win by 20. And we know that, you know, it's rough to do that. But that was my indoctrination to gamble. Meanwhile, I also went to Monticello Raceway. I don't know if you ever heard of Monticello Raceway.

And

when I was growing up, I had heard in my community that everybody went to Monticello Raceway. Monticello Raceway, yeah, they're torses, and they drive the carts. Now, Jewish people, even religious people, would go to the Catskills every summer. They'd go to the Grossingers, they'd go to the Concord, they'd go to Kutchers, they'd to Bungalows. So everybody, even in the Jewish community, the strict Jewish community said, oh, I went to Monticello Raceway. This thing illegally, it could gamble. I mean, the rabbis wouldn't say to go gamble, but you're not breaking any really, you know, Jewish laws. So when I first, I was going to camp and then I was a waiter's counselor, I was able to no curfew and I had my car, I decided to go to Monticello Raceway, I had $20 in my pocket, I blew $10 and then the last thing I said, I was steamed up and I bet the other $10, if I'm out of money, I can't call my parents because they'll send me home. That's the way they were. I put $10 to show, the horse finished dirt. I said, great, I'm even. It paid $220. I got back $11. The

next week, I

got to get even, I blew it all. So I had no money. I ended up borrowing from a friend, maybe $10, and that had to last me for the summer. And I tell you the truth, I went to Monticello one time, but I may have bet two bucks or something, but it was invigorating. I said, this is the greatest. So I get home to high school, 11th grade. My roommate said, what did you do for the summer? Said I went to the most amazing place Monticello Raceway. Said, what? I said, yeah, it was great, unbelievable. Well, it's the first day of school and the homework. He said, let's, we can go tonight. I said, we can go tonight. Sure. I said, I'm not going. It's an hour and 45 minutes away. He said, no, we'll go to Yonkers Raceway. I said, what's Yonkers Raceway? He said, that's where they have the cards. I said, they do? No, Monticello. He said, they have it all over you, you don't. That's how little I... Then I obviously, you know, didn't want to do my work and I was going to Monticello, to Yonkers Raceway. They had the bus from the Port Authority. And you know, you start to speak to people and you know, but when I went there, you know, between races, I read the paper and, and that's the way it started.

Danny, man, this is like, I'm, this is like fantasy land for me right now. I can hear you talk all day. This is incredible. So I don't know. But this, we do, you know, I love this. Um, I can't even think of a follow up question because it's so good. Uh, you're going to all these racetracks now you're getting your feet wet and you're losing.

I'm going to Yonkers. I'm not going to the thoroughbreds. I knew because I knew Kentucky Derby. I knew Kentucky Derby. I didn't know anything about the parts, the trucks. I knew Kentucky Derby. I. I thought in the whole world that was the only track. Then I realized they had 80 tracks around in those things. That tracks in every state. So I realized but then I realized Yonkers and Roseville, the circuit, that was the main one and and that's when I started to really like the races because I was bored and you know sports that we had five channels in those days. So you came up. There's no internet. There's nothing. This is 1967 68. They had five channels two four seven eighty five and nine. There's no cable. There's no satellite thing. So you could barely watch a game. So really, I mean they had the baseball on, but you couldn't watch multiple games. get 30,000 on a weeknight at Yonkers, 40,000 on a Saturday night at Roseville and Yonkers. 40 ,000. You used to have to get there at 715 to bet daily doubles. The line was all over the place. It took you a half hour to get in and the bus dropped us off at 715. We got in about a quarter to eight and we ran to bet the daily double. We barely made it and in those days you couldn't say $100 and they punched you had a ticket $100. They would have to punch out $52 tickets Or if you went to the $50 line some tracks didn't have it Yonkers did they would punch to $50 tickets? But there was a long line So it was a way different. It's you can't even conceive, you know, say, oh, you know, I'm considered a dinosaur. When did you start? 1988. I got 20 years on these guys.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This is, you know, when, when you're doing all this and you say it's invigorating, you're, you're, you're, you're really loving gambling. And even though you're not winning, you still are, are, are convinced that this is a path that you want to go down. Do you ever get into maybe, you know, as a college kid or a high school, whatever it is, possibly booking friends or doing something or did you ever get into, you know, how would you support the habit of going to the racetrack financially given your parents weren't giving you any money. How did you build up a bankroll to keep doing what you did. that's

another story. We'll get to that. But, you know, a couple of kids in my high school class, naturally now, kids are coming from all over the country, it's a big high school, you know, kids are a lot sharper and less cloistered than I was. So, another friend I had said, you know, a bookie, I didn't even know about the Vig, you know, when you take 11 to 10, it's better than laying 11 to 10. I said, no, it's not because I get the pic. He's a sitting duck. The guy said, yeah, but he couldn't he, he realized that 11 to 10 was good. He just didn't realize, because again, with juniors in high school, what do we know? You know, today everybody at six years old knows everything. I mean, my grandkids at eight years old, they go to the computer, boom, boom, boom, they find anything they want. So every kid is brilliant today, everybody. That's why you can't get into a good school because everybody did. The competition is off the charts.

If

I was at 15, 16 years old today, oh boy, I have no idea what I would do. Well, I probably know what I would do. I'd probably be a bartender because I try to get along with people. But that's what I would do. But I knew that book, but I also found out pretty quickly, this was probably in high school, that booking is illegal. Now I'm in enough trouble as it is with my parents. They're pulling their hair out. They don't know what's wrong with me. They wanna send me to therapists. They wanna send me to Vienna. There, my mother is crazy. She's off that she's a dismay. They just didn't understand. I try to explain it to them. Now I'm doing real bad in school. My father had to go down a couple of times. But again, I was a double legacy. And I wasn't trouble. I was no trouble. I only miss. I think I missed one day in high school always showed up. I got suspended one time because the guy flipped me over in the hallway the teacher was right there and threw us to the principal office and the principal looked at me and said go home for a day. I was a senior by then so but I always showed up wasn't a bad kid didn't interrupt I would just daydream all day and by then you know I wasn't jumping out of a chair like I wasn't in you know uh when I was a kid and falling off my chair and stuff but you know I was doing so bad in school. In fact, I'll tell you a story. They had class rankings in those days, the class rankings came out, we had a class of 130 people. So everybody gets the class ranking, I look and I go, what? I was 113. So everybody says, I said, once I'm telling people 113.