Escaping the AI Thirst Trap: Building Products That Actually Last | Des Traynor
Mostly Growth
Margins, Multiples, and Cost-Plus Models
Hosts and Des debate cost-plus AI pricing, implications for gross margins, valuation, and investor expectations.
In this episode of Mostly Growth, Kyle Poyar and CJ Gustafson sit down with Des Traynor, Co-Founder of Intercom, to unpack how building, marketing, and scaling software has changed over the past decade—and what still matters. Des reflects on the early days of SaaS, why attention and distribution have become the hardest problems in modern growth, and how AI has intensified both competition and hype. The conversation dives into founder-led sales, why customer love and real product value beat narrative-driven marketing, and what weak retention metrics reveal about many AI-native startups. Des also shares Intercom’s thinking on outcome-based pricing, brand investment, and why reality ultimately “bats last” in software, offering a grounded perspective on what it takes to build durable companies in an increasingly noisy market.
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SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
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LINKS:
Intercom: https://www.intercom.com/
Des on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/destraynor/
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
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RELATED EPISODES:
Mall Santas, Chicken Fingers, and the Case for Keeping It Simple
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:15 Sponsors — Metronome | Pulley
00:03:35 Introducing Des Traynor
00:04:18 Early SaaS Nostalgia
00:05:45 Why Distribution Got Hard
00:07:12 Going Niche in Modern GTM
00:08:50 Founder-Led Sales & AI Rebrands
00:10:44 Product vs Narrative
00:12:08 AI Retention Reality
00:14:44 Churn Hiding Growth
00:16:00 Easy Come, Easy Churn
00:17:56 What Makes AI Companies Great
00:19:58 Standing Out With Real Proof
00:21:46 Customer-Led Marketing Wins
00:23:08 When to Invest in Brand
00:25:13 Why CMOs Don’t Last
00:27:03 Turning Happy Customers Into Growth
00:30:09 Pricing AI: Outcomes vs Cost-Plus
00:31:57 Limits of Outcome-Based Pricing
00:32:56 What 20% Margins Mean for SaaS
00:34:31 Leaving Money on the Table
00:36:50 Pricing as a Marketing Choice
00:38:03 Business Blunders & NDAs
00:40:03 Why Ideas Aren’t the Moat
00:41:22 Fake Scarcity & Angel Bait
00:42:55 Stuff We Tried This Week
00:43:44 Happy Customers as Marketing
00:44:12 Vibe Coding Gets Scary Fast
00:45:25 SaaS Moats vs DIY Tools
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #AIStartups #SaaSPricing #FounderLedGrowth #B2BMarketing
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