David and Helen talk with historian Sarah Churchwell about the origins, uses and abuses of the idea of American fascism. Where does American fascism come from? Does it follow a European model or is it something exceptional? What role do white supremacy and anti-Semitism play in its development? How close has it got to power? Plus we ask the big question for now: Does it make sense to call Trump a fascist?
Talking Points:
Trump’s decision to hold a rally in Tulsa on 19 June is an act of clear provocation to African Americans, especially at this moment.
- 19 June 1865 was the day the last slaves were emancipated, two years after the Emancipation Proclamation.
- The symbolic deferral, the fact that white people were actively denying black people full rights and citizenship, is what Juneteenth came to represent.
- Tulsa is where the worst race riot in American history occurred in 1921. The white population of Tulsa descended on a thriving black community.
- The Trump campaign was forced to move the rally a day. It will happen on 20 June.
Is fascism the right word for what has happened—and is happening in America?
- The second Klan rose between 1915 and 1922.
- The commentariat at the time pointed to Mussolini and fascism to explain the Klan’s resurgence.
- Hitler looked at the US and took aspects, including the legal institutionalisation of white supremacy, especially in the South, as an inspiration.
- But there is something quite specific about European fascism in the 1920s that has to do with the fallout of the First World War.
Fascism is ultra-nationalism. It has to be different in every country: it’s highly situational, highly historicized.
- It can be hard to pin down because each iteration takes its own form.
- Is it historically accurate to call the present moment fascist? Is it useful?
- Is calling Trump a fascist too comforting? Does it keep us from seeing the reasons why he won?
- Is it useful to think about American nativist, conspiratorial, racist, xenophobic, anti-semitic gorups as being recognizably fascist going back in time?
Mentioned in this Episode:
Further Learning:
