David Segal was one of the pioneers too. He really set a lot of a lot in motion as far as actually using these boxes for design elements. And you know, people will decry HTML table layouts now, but then back then that's what we had to work with. We were scrappy. But yeah, so it was just, you know, just using what you, what you can to make it work. That would, that book inspired me and I just ate it up."