When did we cross that threshold where it was out of anyone's control? I think it took a leap with til grossing, making people produce surplus. With agriculture, nature and people became impersonal inputs to support the production of economic surplus. And there's always this battle going on too between sort of enlightened self interests ou now part the elite as, look, we can't push, we can’t take everything. We have to keep people pretty happier they vote against us, and so on. On the other side, you have these people just want to take, take the money, an runs or stial everything that isn't nailed down.

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