And so that's the next question is, is how did we get here? What are the potential causes?

So Robert Putnam has this great book, Bowling Alone, where he explores why is nobody going to the bowling alley anymore. And out of all of his research, the reason that he finds most compelling is the television. Because before the TV, people spent their leisure time around others. Then they spent it in their far walls. They got this parasocial connection of feeling connected to people in the show, kind of like a snack of connection, but not the nutrient-dense meal. And not only that, that watching TV encouraged this general lethargy such that even after they were done with the TV show, they didn't want to do anything else. And so you could see how the same factors that made the TV kind of an instrument of isolation have also occurred with the smartphone. We find more generally that those people that use the smartphone to connect with people in person are actually the least lonely of everyone. But those folks who are using the smartphone to replace in-person connection, who are coming home and just scrolling on their phones, they tend to be the most lonely of everybody.

Yeah. And I want to highlight that point you just mentioned, actually, because there is that argument that, yes, technology has potentially been a cause of increased feelings of loneliness, but at the same time, you can connect with people better. So can you expand on how the way that people use technology is really impactful? So the research finds that the impact of technology on loneliness depends

on how you use it. If you are a passive user, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, your mental health is going to get poorer. You're going to experience greater likelihood of loneliness. But if you are an active user, which means I'm reaching out to people, I'm leaving comments, I'm posting things, I'm DMing people to hang out in person, I'm finding out about events where I can go to in person, then generally you are going to be less lonely and your mental health is going to be better. I'm

curious if you've heard of these AI companion apps. The Wall Street Journal recently had an article that was analyzing some of them and found that they actually can help people who feel lonely, that they're designed to validate feelings and that sort of thing. Have you heard about this and what

do you think? I think when it comes to AI, I just want it to be used as like a bridge to in-person connection. So to the extent that loneliness, it's not just a feeling, it makes us feel more threatened by others, more judgmental of them, more likely to fear rejection. It puts us into a state where we're hypervigilant for threat. So to the extent that these AI apps can make you feel less of that so that you're more prepared to go interact in person that doesn't feel as threatening and scary for you, then I think that can be positive. But to the extent that people are then relying on the AI app and not interacting in person, then it really does concern me because fundamentally what we've seen in the research is that in-person connection with other human beings is just irreplaceable. I

imagine that remote work, for all of its benefits and flexibility, has there also been a downside that we aren't getting those automatic connections at work? I

imagine that it depends on whether you have the kind of workplace that like you would rather withdraw from or the kind of beneficial workplace where if you were in person, you would feel more connected. You know, for example, like I've seen some research that like for black employees, they might actually feel better about being online because they're experiencing more like microaggressions or discrimination at work. So that's how that's part of like why I think it's a bit complicated. I think if all workplaces were like healthy and nurturing and connecting, then absolutely remote work would take away from that. But because a lot of workplaces don't feel safe comfortable and people feel very inauthentic at work, then there's a case to be made that not necessarily.

What are some of the impacts or dangers of loneliness, both mentally and physically?

Lonely people are like over 10 times more likely to both think about and attempt suicide in their lives, like grave impacts on mental health. When you looked at research that looks at 106 factors that prevent against depression, having someone to confide in is the number one thing that prevents against depression. So you can say that it's almost impossible to be mentally healthy if you're chronically lonely. Just like to be healthy, we need food and oxygen and water. We also need connection. In terms of physical health, that actually surprises people. I mean, the commonly cited statistic is loneliness is as toxic as smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which is wild because how many of us would never smoke 15 cigarettes a day but are used to being lonely? But we also see, for example, that loneliness is related to Alzheimer's progressing much more rapidly. It's related to people that get vaccinated. The vaccines are less effective on them if they're lonely. So it really does get under our skin. It's like loneliness is like being in a state of chronic stress. Lonely people also engage in what's called like hyper wakes, where they wake up, they tend to have more disruptive sleep because they're waking up for like milliseconds to like scan the room for threat. So it's being in a state where you're in chronic stress, hypervigilant to stress, and that does a lot of wear and tear on your body. You

know, I want to be clear, everybody feels lonely sometimes, right? So how lonely do you have to feel or for how long before it actually becomes problematic? I

think the sort of chronically lonely people have the worst health impacts when it comes to loneliness. And so those are what you can see, like from someone who's chronically lonely, how you can tell is that they tend to have this hopelessness around finding connection. You'll hear them say things like, you just can't trust people at the end of the day, or people are really out to get you, or they just don't see connection as fundamentally rewarding anymore, or that hostility is turned inward, where they're just like, I'm pathetic, or I'm worthless, and I, you know, nobody wants to hang out with me. And so once it gets internalized and continues to impact both how you see other people in a more enduring way or how you see yourself in a more enduring way, then that's when loneliness is particularly concerning. What

would you say to somebody who is like introverted and doesn't like to be around a lot of people versus somebody who's lonely? Can you differentiate that a little bit? Yeah.

So loneliness is a subjective feeling that you don't have the level of connection that you want. And so if you're introverted and you're like, this is cool, this is my alone time. if it feels like an offering to you and rather than a deficit, then that's a sign that this is solitude for you and it's not loneliness. But introverts too, like myself, we get to a point where we're like, oh, actually, I would prefer to be around other people and be connected to other people. And then it sort of slinks away from solitude and it becomes loneliness.

What about the impact of loneliness on a societal level?

Well, when you're in a lonely society, it's a lot harder for people to stay connected, right? Because if lonely people withdraw from social connection because they feel threatened, all the people that would have reached out to you are now not. And that's why I think it's really hard for Gen Z because they're facing highest rates of loneliness of any generation. So, for example, there's one study that found that if someone close to you becomes lonely, you are then 52 percent more likely to become lonely yourself. You mentioned Gen Z. Do you think that's the group that's now

particularly at risk for loneliness? There

tends to be a U-shaped curve such that Gen Z, the youngest generation, and folks that are oldest tend to be the most at risk for loneliness. I'm particularly concerned with Gen Z because it used to be like maybe like 15 years ago before the smartphones that this wasn't true. There wasn't this U-shaped relationship with loneliness where the youngest generation was the most lonely. And so that's a more recent development.

Dr.