Which leads into our next question, because like that is the catalyst change maker experience. And so having purpose is definitely, I mean, we can also, I am curious, but I don't want to take it down too far. The purpose can be a double -edged sword sometimes, because sometimes are too much resiliency and too much stuff. But in your stint in the corporate world, I'm wondering if that has its own sort of flavor of challenges. Like what were some of the challenges that you encountered in the corporate world? And how did you overcome those as a catalyst leader?

Yeah, it's a really question, Shannon. Now I think of like the the younger me. The younger me was this tomboy growing up in Staten Island, who had a chip on her shoulder, who would constantly fight with boys and try to achieve equality. Like I'm as good as you, I'm gonna work twice as hard to be better than you. Like there was this sort of like competitive spirit but it was always driven by this need to feel equality and fairness through my gender, right? And then I went and I worked in, I I built a company, Hot Studio, again, female entrepreneur in a world of tech. Again, always feeling like I have to fight, I have to be resilient, I have to prove that I'm equal to you, right? And, but I was also my own, I was also my own boss. So my mistakes, I can own my own mistakes and fall on my own sword. And so I had this cavalier attitude. Like I had the passion purpose, I had the skills. I was very confident and I had gone through a lot of adversity. And then my company got acquired by Facebook. And even though I've worked with clients in corporate America, for 1520 years, I had never ever worked inside corporate America. And I that was like my first sort of like, I'm to say aha moment, not mistake. But I went in to corporate America thinking that I had this down, that I understood culture, that I knew how to work inside a company. And then I realized it was like a completely different set of skills. you're inside a company working inside the belly and beast versus working externally as an as a as working in an agency. And we had talked about this earlier. A lot of people make the mistake that if you feel like you have the process down that you're going to be successful. But when you're inside a company, it is actually less about the process, although important. And it's much more important about people, and how to build trust, and how to bring people along, how to help people believe in a vision and a mission, have them see themselves in that and building support so that you could be successful from the inside. And this was a huge wake up call when I got to Facebook and realized that even though I had already lived a long life and had 20 plus years under my belt as a leader, I was like a novice all over again, being inside a company. It's

such a great reflection that you had that depth of experience from a different modality that you can go in with. I mean, kind of probably it sounds like a forced clarity. As you're getting there, Like, can you explain a challenge or a time that you really, you were confronted by the difference and how did you overcome it? Like, yes, the bringing people along and the trust. And it's like, we're all like, yeah, that sounds great. But like materially, you have to deliver, you know, quarterly things and you have things on you. How did you leverage develop those skills? Well, the thing that I soon learned being in Sitecore for America is that

you could have all the data, you could have all the research. Remember, my background's in design. So my first process is research -informed insights, right? And so you think you have all the logic, you have all the group points, you've done all the communication, you've done all of those things. You have the metrics, you have success metrics, you have all the receipts. Yeah. And a lot and what and so the big obstacle for me was in, in that's important, but it's not necessarily going to get people to believe in your mission or build trust, and then you're going to have this regardless of all the proof points, you are going to confront people are going to block your initiative whether or not you have proof. Because when you're working with change, it triggers emotional responses in people. and this has been a huge learning through my research, being from corporate America in the end, was, you know, how do you how do you how do you build your own self awareness in terms of how you show up as a leader, if you show up with all the receipts and your defensive, you're not going to get people to buy in. So a lot, a lot of the work that I learned through, you know, trial and error and lots of error and lots of pain is that there are going to be people who are not who are not going be comfortable change you seek. And they're either going to be in there again, it's going to be implicit or it's going to be explicit, and it's those silent people that who've been in companies for many years that have sort of this underground influence that can tank your mission. And that happened multiple times for me when I was at Autodesk. You know, I think

you deal with that. I mean, clearly you were successful. How do you deal with that?

Well, I think I didn't deal with it that well, because I, again, I this was sort of new to me. And because I came in with this, like I, I, you know, you got to be resilient, you got to show up, you got to be ready for the fight. Again, how I showed up being a woman in business feeling like it's been like, I have to prove I have to be aggressive. I realized that that was not the winning move. And it wasn't only until I left my job at Autodesk, AKA got pushed out, AKA got fired, where I had this, what the fuck just happened to me moment? Yes. Right? It was like, wait a minute. I have done all of this. I have huge successful resume. I have made incredible impact that was measurable in the company for two years. And how did this happen? Now, I know how it happened. The CEO quit, retired, who was my executive sponsor who brought me in to do this kind of change making work. And then, then my boss quit right afterwards, and new leaders came in, who were part of the company who knew me. but they did not believe in what I was trying to accomplish. And, and while I was showing the door, the new CEO said to me, Maria, I respect you. You did a lot of great work here, but you didn't trust you, you. What did you say, you should not have trusted the people that you trusted or something like that. It was so weird. Like you, you bet your horse on the wrong people. Wow. Right. And so, so the people who are in power now are the people that I kind of just wrote off that I figured they're blocking me. So I'm going to ignore them. So what's the big lesson here? The big lesson is you got to show up with humility. You got to you you when you show up, especially if you're new, you don't run into a burning building, think you're going to save people. Because there's lots of people who've been in that company who've seen people like me come and go and they're just waiting for you to fail. Instead, you have to pay attention with those people who are most resistant to the things that you are doing and you have to find a way to find common ground and heroize them and bring them into the fold, not ignore them. And this whole experience, this bad experience, was why I wrote Change Makers. Because I had this moment which was, all right, this person who's been successful her whole life suddenly like got pushed out the door. And I love my job and I was making great great change happen. What did I do right what did I do wrong. And I realized that this was like new skills that people like me need to learn. And I went because again, I'm a designer and researcher, I want to learn what other people have experienced. And then I spent three years interviewing over 40 people in design, in entrepreneurship, in, you know, restaurants, in social justice, like a whole bunch of industries. And I interviewed a catalyst, you would define them as catalysts, I would define them as change makers. Yeah, learn the lessons that they had learned being in in in organizations, and that became the basis of change makers. But the catalyst was me getting fired.

Right. And a common story. And I can appreciate the catharsis of writing the book to the if I only had that operating manual four years ago.

was it. It was like, I'm gonna, I want to put something out in the world. So other change leaders or catalyst and change makers. you know, like empty, like empty handed like I did. I wanted people, that was the goal of the book was, it really is for people, for catalysts to have sort of a running start in terms of what to anticipate. You've

heard it here, you, you're listening you already know Shannon nice book but change makers is for you too. So be sure that you're picking that up and I am learning things. I'm loving it. Yeah. So if we could use a time machine Maria, and we can go back to before. What type of support or resources, would you have dreamed that might have supported the transformation from one executive team to the next.

Yeah, yeah. This is where I believe in good mentors. And, you know, even though I do feel like I was sort of like one of the few women who were kind of charting a path in technology early, early on, I always had mentors that I could look up to can give me guidance. That's the first really important resource is to have people who have lived experience, wise elders, if you will, who can, that can be can kind of like be a check, checkbox for you, somebody you can run things by you. And so I really did have some great mentors. Christopher Ireland, who's my co -author, is one of my top mentors. And she was a CEO of a company called Cheskin Research. I don't know if you've heard of it. You must have because I think - I know Cheskin well. Because they were a big, Microsoft was one of their biggest clients. Yeah. And Christopher was the CEO of that company, woman CEO, and 10 years, she's about 10 years older than me. And I could always lean on her for experience. And so that was super helpful. And as a matter of fact, she was the one who talked me into doing Rise of the DEO, the book Rise of the DEO, because she had saw me give a TED talk about this idea of a DEO, a creative business leader, who possesses certain skills and qualities that when applied can be incredible leaders. So DEO is a creative business leader who sees all business problems as design problems, solvable through creativity and metrics. And the DEO is a change agent, risk taker, uses intuition, systems thinking, people centered, sound familiar, designers, right? And so I'm always comparing these design qualities that when you unlock them and apply them to leadership, not necessarily just attaching them to design the industry, but applying these mindsets and qualities to being a good leader, you're gonna stand above the rest, right? And so Christopher talked me into doing this book. And then that kicked off you know, 10 year plus collaboration. And when I wanted to do change makers I talked her into doing this book as a writer. I love it. She's a writer, she's an amazing writer.

I didn't know that. That's good news. Yeah.

Yeah. And so, so she's been a mentor. And I would say that's the most important research resource. Yeah.

Have

good people around you that are smarter than you in certain domains. BFA in design. And I surrounded myself in like my sort of co -creator, co -conspirator was Rajin Devs. And he got an MBA, much like Christopher, she's got an MBA, but they both get design. So I'm a design leader who gets business and I partner with people who are business leaders who get design, so we get this great cocktail of expertise. And then I had somebody who's a specialist in finance, and legal, and banking, and M &A. And this became a nucleus of mentors that gave me the tools to make really good decisions. It's

like a personal board of directors that you built. Absolutely. It's so funny

because I often when I coach people, I ask them about their internal board of directors or the external board of directors. Who are the people in your nucleus that are gonna extend and complement the superpowers you innately have?

Because

none of this can be done without others.

A hundred percent. There's another tie. I think that Shannon and I mentioned earlier, we run a Catalyst Leadership Trust, an executive group. And so I'm curious your thoughts. So you mentioned mentors, and to me, typically as you're talking about Christopher is kind of that someone who's older and wiser. What, what is your experience or thoughts and having a peer group in particular, if you add it at the time at Autodesk or Facebook of those catalyst peers, you need the early folks that you're sensing with and co -creating with. I

had those too.