Balancing Complexity and User Experience

“You don’t want money that is not a good store of value. We’re in a very specific point in human history where that exists, but that’s not the default, right? We have to remember that. These more or less last hundred years - this is just a very small spot in human history where we all happened to be born - where money is not a good store of value, right? Because governments have coerced it upon us. But it wasn’t like that before.

It’s not the normal state of things. The normal state of things is that money is a good store of value, right? Gold was a good store of value. In other societies, it was a good store of value in various materials, right? We don’t need to get into the history of money. But the important thing to remember is that we are the exception. We are the anomaly where something went kind of wrong and has to be fixed.”
~ Ben Kaufman

I sit down with Ben Kaufman to catch up and take stock of where Bitcoin actually is right now. We dig into the four-year cycle, whether it still matters, and what ETFs, politics, and financialization have changed about the culture.

Ben shares insights from his work on Miniscript and Bitcoin Keeper, including why better recovery, inheritance, and UX matter more than ever. We talk Lightning as the default payment rail, custodial tradeoffs for small amounts, and what sovereignty really means in practice.

The conversation drifts into AI, productivity, and why this shift feels bigger than anything we expected a few years ago. We also touch on privacy, regulation, and why that side of Bitcoin feels stalled despite better tools. This is a thoughtful conversation on building, patience, and why understanding Bitcoin matters more than chasing green candles.

Check out our awesome sponsors!

• Ledn: Need fiat but don’t want to sell your Bitcoin? Ledn offers secure, Bitcoin-backed loans with no credit checks, flexible repayment, and fast turnaround—often within 24 hours. With $10B+ in loans across 100+ countries and transparent Proof of Reserves, Ledn is a trusted option for unlocking liquidity without giving up your Bitcoin. (Link: https://learn.ledn.io/audible)
• HRF: The Human Rights Foundation is a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that promotes and protects human rights globally, with a focus on closed societies. Subscribe to HRF's Financial Freedom Newsletter today. (Link: https://mailchi.mp/hrf.org/financial-freedom-newsletter)
• OFF: The Oslo Freedom Forum is a global human rights event by the Human Rights Foundation (HRF), uniting voices from activism, journalism, tech, and beyond. Through powerful stories and collaboration, OFF advances freedom and human potential worldwide. Join us next June. (Link: https://oslofreedomforum.com/)
• Pubky: Pubky is building the next web, a decentralized system designed to put control back in your hands. Escape censorship, algorithmic manipulation, and walled gardens by owning your identity and data. Explore the Pubky web and become the algorithm today. Don't forget to find me on my Pubky ID here: pk:5d7thwzkxx5mz6gk1f19wfyykr6nrwzaxri3io7ahejg1z74qngo. (Link: https://pubky.org)
• Chroma: Chroma is dedicated to advancing human performance and well-being through cutting-edge light therapy devices and performance eyewear. Their mission is to enhance physical and mental health, unlocking peak human health, cognitive function, and physical performance. Get 10% off your order with the code BITCOINAUDIBLE. (Link: https://getchroma.co/?ref=BitcoinAudible)

Guest Links

• Ben on X (Link: https://twitter.com/_benkaufman)
• Bitcoin Keeper on X (Link: https://twitter.com/bitcoinKeeper_)
• Bitcoin Keeper Website (Link: https://bitcoinkeeper.app/)

Host Links

• ⁠Guy on Nostr ⁠(Link: http://tinyurl.com/2xc96ney)
• ⁠Guy on X ⁠(Link: https://twitter.com/theguyswann)
• Guy on Instagram (Link: https://www.instagram.com/theguyswann)
• Guy on TikTok (Link: https://www.tiktok.com/@theguyswann)
• Guy on YouTube (Link: https://www.youtube.com/@theguyswann)
• ⁠Bitcoin Audible on X⁠ (Link: https://twitter.com/BitcoinAudible)
• The Guy Swann Network Broadcast Room on Keet (Link: https://tinyurl.com/3na6v839)