Reconsidering Cousin Marriages

Join Simone and Malcolm Collins as they dive into the history, science, and controversy of cousin marriage and mixed-race marriage. From Darwin’s pro/con list to modern genetic research, this episode explores the cultural, biological, and personal sides of who we choose to marry. Stay tuned for surprising facts, actionable advice, and a few laughs along the way!

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Malcolm. I'm so excited to be with you today because we're gonna get spicy and extol the virtues of cousin marriage and mixed race marriage

Speaker 4: Mirror universe, encounter mirror, universe. This is easy. Yeah, I can pretend to be evil.

Deal.

Simone Collins: just so you know, wait, hold on,

Malcolm Collins (2): stop. Before you go further. Are we talking about mixed race or just cousin marriage?

Simone Collins: Mixed race and cousin marriage. Oh, really? Yeah. We're going, we're going in for both dude.

Malcolm Collins (2): Continue

Simone Collins: because ultimately I'm gonna argue that you should basically go for one or the other. But

Malcolm Collins (2): Okay.

Either, either marry your cousin or someone of a different race. Yeah, dude.

Speaker: Athens's log star, date unknown. My landing party is beamed back to the enterprise and found it and the personnel aboard chain. The ship is subtly altered physically. [00:01:00] Behavior and disciplines become brutal. Savage.

Speaker 3: Did how

this.

Simone Collins: We're gonna go,

Malcolm Collins (2): okay. So go into the genetics of this. Go. Go.

Simone Collins: Let me. Can I, Mr. Tired man. Just let, let me drive, let me cook. All right. Anthropologists estimate that over 80% of marriages in history have been between second cousins or closer.

So basically the default for the vast majority of human history has been people marrying their relatives. And I remember we were walking in, in the Alps in Switzerland, when you really opened my eyes to this, you were like, listen, like look at these hills. Do you think that the people who've lived here for thousands of years were like.

Going far away to marry someone. Like it was really hard. They weren't doing that. They were like marrying their siblings. But, so even today, cousin, marriage rates are pretty high, like especially in parts of the Middle East and North Africa and South Asia. They can meet up to 20 to 50% of marriages to date in countries like Pakistan or Kuwait or [00:02:00] Saudi Arabia.

But like, even if you're a, a weird, you know, European urban monoculture person, you should probably be cool with cousin marriage. It, it gave us Charles Darwin, who also in turn was a product of a well he was the product of his second cousin marriage, but he married his first cousin. Yeah. And he's, he's the evolution dude.

I mean he's the evolution dude. Yeah. Yeah. HG Wells. He was, he had first cousin parents. Tons of European royals, obviously. But even Albert Einstein married his first cousin, you know, like the, the smart people are doing it. And then if we go to mixed race, which mixed race, so, so

Malcolm Collins (2): you're a smart guy like Albert Einstein or Darwin, you're marrying your cousin,

Simone Collins: I mean.

And I, do you know about Darwin's list of like benefits and drawbacks of marriage? This man was very thoughtful about it.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh, he did? He did a list, yeah. Oh my

Simone Collins: God. Oh, okay. Hold on. Sorry. Diversion. You don't know this list. Okay. Charles Darwin, marriage pro and con list. This is too good to. [00:03:00] Yeah. So pros of marriage.

So yeah, before he, before he married his first cousin he really thought he, like, he wasn't sure about getting married at all. So before he, he, he married his wife he made a pro con list. Pros of marriage as listed by Darwin. A constant companion and friend in old age children who could be a source of love and play charms of music and female chitchat, a home and someone to care for it.

Okay. Significant things I got, I, I

Malcolm Collins (2): got the pros. So yeah, you got

Simone Collins: the pros. A significant feeling of being humanized and having greater happiness than solitude and. A, a soft wife on a sofa with a good fire, books and music. What a sweet, I love

Malcolm Collins (2): that.

Simone Collins: Sex is not

Malcolm Collins (2): in there for him.

Simone Collins: No, he's, he's autistic. Darwin, he was probably asexual.

So the cons of marriage as listed by Darwin. A terrible loss of time preventing travel or pursuing scientific interests. You know, he [00:04:00] had, he had his special interests, Malcolm, the bugs. Okay. The, the animals. Limited freedom to go wherever he pleased. That's a problem. Forced visits to relatives and having to bend in every trifle.

He's not down with that. Also, the anxiety, expense and responsibility associated with children. He was not excited about kids. A reduction in funds, meaning less money for books. Ah, less money for bug. Yes. And less time for evenings out with friends and clever men at clubs. So clever men at clubs.

Clever men at clubs. Yeah. So woman, we chat.

Malcolm Collins (2): You get but not

Simone Collins: clever men. Not clever men. Yes. Yeah. You, you, you. Yeah. He had to trade in Clever men for a soft wife on a sofa with a good fire, books and music, but not as many books.

Speaker 2: Not as many. So he thought

Simone Collins: really carefully about this. Okay. But yeah, I mean like, so obviously like cousin marriage was the historical default because people couldn't get around.

But now mixed race marriage is bigger than ever and getting bigger. 18 to [00:05:00] 20% of new marriages in the US are mixed race marriages. They have produced amazing people. Barack Obama, Mariah Carey, tiger Woods, Vanessa Williams. So I'm gonna go through the history of cousin and mixed race, marriage, mixed race marriages, and how the regulation thereof has shaped civilization.

We're gonna talk about the benefits and drawbacks of cousin and mixed race marriage. Mm-hmm. Because there are ways to do it and there are ways to not do it. To be blunt, and I'll share general takeaways. If you wanna be really obsessive Darwin style about producing, do not do it. You're gonna suggest some racial pairings are bad.

I am. Yes. Sorry, but not sorry. But if you wanna have maximally fit kids based on your partner choice, there are ways to do it better than others. So on average oh my God, this my Basecamp. Okay, we're not about to get canceled. It's not we worth doing. And then ultimately I'm gonna explain why basically.

It's, it's optimal to either marry your fourth cousin or third cousin or marry someone from a very [00:06:00] specific different genetic heritage based on your sex and personal background. So this is different for men and women. Okay. Very specific. I'm gonna be tactical here. You're gonna come away with actionable advice for either you or.

Marriage planning for children, which is I guess what we're gonna be looking at. And then bonus Malcolm at, 'cause I've, I've looked, I hacked into your 23 and Me account and added you as a contact and I found exactly how much you and I are related. So you get to find out that at the end. 'cause everyone wonders just how related are we?

They, they think that we're brother and sister 'cause. You know, look at us.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, no, I mean, we are cousin marriage. She's not my cousin, but she could be, I think genetically faking. Well,

Simone Collins: you're gonna find out, aren't you, Malcolm? Are you gonna check that? I already did. I just told you I hacked into your 23 and me account.

I made us connect. Wait, are we related? You have to stay awake long enough to see. You have to wait until the end. I'll give you the screenshot. No, I like [00:07:00] and I. I went into your account so I could find our actual Oh my God, Simone, they're totally cousins, aren't we? You're gonna find out. So the history, the history of mixed race marriages and cousin marriages basically genetic and genealogical studies show that before the industrial age, most spouses were on average fourth cousins much more closely related than today's typical partners.

So we've sort of like let go. Which is sad. This may explain a sort of, I mean, the fact that maybe we, we are descended from so much cousin marriage could explain as sort of mating, which, which is the, this phenomenon of people being more attracted to people who resemble themselves. So studies have shown that participants in these studies rate faces morphed with their own features as more attractive.

So they're like take a general face and like. You know, meld it with pictures of them and those people like, Hey, that person's hot. It's really

Malcolm Collins (2): nice. Well, no, there, so the Western Mark effect, many people don't know this. Ooh. Yeah. If you grow up separate from your [00:08:00] siblings or your parents mm-hmm. You typically are unnaturally attracted to them when you become an adult.

Yeah. And the only reason you are not aroused by your siblings is because of something called the Western mark effect, which means your body cues to people who are around you and who you have affection for mm-hmm. During specific developmental periods, early in your childhood. Yeah. And causes a disgust reaction towards those individuals.

Yeah. When

Simone Collins: you're like. You, I would never, I see you as a sister, as a brother, whatever. Even if you're like,

Malcolm Collins (2): it's why people raise together, get this effect even though they're not biologically related. Exactly. Which is a big problem in some parts of the world where they practice communal ride prices at very young ages and trade the kids when they're still youth.

Because then they developed a Western Merc effect for each other, and they'll find each other quite

Simone Collins: disgusting. Well, this is also a big problem with those IVF donors who've like, you know, produced children, the all

Malcolm Collins (2): like into each other and it's a huge problem. Yeah, no,

Simone Collins: and like people have had the, like, there, there are support groups for this.

You can look it up for people who realize sometimes a [00:09:00] little late that they're attracted to their, their siblings. And I mean, how embarrassing. I mean, this has even shown up in like movie plots and stuff. It's, yeah, it's, it's a thing. But yeah, I mean also in speed dating experiments, people have rated opposite sex partners with similar faces, including geometric averages and shared ethnic features as both more attractive and more kind.

They're just like, you're a better person 'cause you'll look like me. Yeah, because you're more like me. Well, I mean, in group preferences are useful. Well, yeah, and, and also just in general, couplers are more likely to be of similar ethnicity and to share notable facial fe facial features like, like hair color and eye shape and face and cheekbone structure and even jawline.

I don't know, like it, it kind of feels like it dovetails to me with the, the, the, that weird phenomenon of also people looking like their dog. I think people just like. Like appearances that resonate with them. But one TV experiment, I thought this was funny found that over 75% of people picked as most attractive the face that had been subtly edited to resemble themselves.

So once again, like when, when researchers like. [00:10:00] Just insert your face into someone else, you're like, oh, damn, I wanna bang them. Which is, is, is just delightful. But cousin marriages have also been fought for centuries. So, I mean, very popular example. The Catholic church began to ban cousin marriage in the early Middle Ages.

And it gradually expanded this prohibition during the sixth to 12th centuries. And initially it only covered marriage between close relatives. But by the ninth and 12th centuries, which is still forever ago, it ex extended to as many as. Seven degrees of kinship. Can you imagine how hard that would be for people to be small villages?

No. It's

Malcolm Collins (2): basically a functional trap you, you in, in that time period. For people who aren't aware, there is no one you would've met when you talk about how distant seven degree kinship is.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): it wouldn't be seven degree kinship.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): So point out here, I don't know what degree kinship I'm gonna be to you in this cousin Max Simonon,

Speaker 2: but I'm

Malcolm Collins (2): pretty sure it's closer than seven and each other.

Randomly in modern society, I would be very surprised. And the, and the reason why the church did this is it gave them [00:11:00] more control over people because there's no, no other reason you would

Just in case you're wondering what the Bible does ban, you've got parents and children, Leviticus 18 7 8. That's probably a good one to have in there. Siblings and half siblings, Leviticus 18, 9 11, aunts, uncles, and nieces and nephews. Leviticus 1812 through 14 daughters-in-law, Leviticus 1815 Sisters-in-Law, Leviticus 1816 Grandchildren implied in broader family context.

And then if you're looking for the line that they use to try to get the broader, like seven degrees of consanguinity, it is Leviticus 18 six. None of you shall approach any of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. However, in the context, close relatives means close relatives.

Malcolm Collins (2): well there's, there's

Simone Collins: a, there's a couple reasons. I mean, like the, the one that the PC answer they give is like, oh, we wanted to like.

You know, get people to extend their networks more broadly so that, you know, there was broader unity. But like one of the big things is because to your point, it was really [00:12:00] hard to find someone who was that unrelated to you. Mm-hmm. You had to get a dispensation. And that generated income and increased the assets of the church.

But also they, they wanted to break up tight, extended, extended family clan networks and power. 'cause then, you know, the church had the power, not the family clans. And it, it also just had a profound effect on family and social structure in Western Europe. It drove the rise of the nuclear family, which, you know, you and I hate.

It weakened tribal and clan loyalty. So it was, it was, it was one of those like, you know, this, this, this. Early fight against cousin marriage, which is such a default, has shaped a lot of our history. And then many US based restrictions actually didn't emerge, which I think is really interesting until around the civil war.

Kansas was the first to ban cousin marriage, and it was only in 1858. Most of the prohibitions. Yeah, Kansas, most of the pro prohibitions appeared by 1930. Okay. So it was actually pretty late that the US started freaking out about it. But what's interesting is [00:13:00] it wasn't just driven by concerns about the health and fitness of offspring.

Like what, what they cited at the time was birth defects, idiocy deafness, blindness, et cetera. But they, they were also very concerned about social order and morality. And they wanted to promote civilization through marriages between unrelated people. So it wasn't just genetics. They, they thought like influential writers and ministers in the mid 18 hundreds linked cousin marriage with primitive customs.

They suggested that it undermined societal progress and moral standards. But,

Malcolm Collins (2): And I've, I've seen some articles recently that have argued that the reason why the West developed as much as it did and as quickly as it did was because of the band on cousins of marriages. Yeah. Which broke up Family clan networks.

Yeah, and mean you needed to have higher trust for society in general. Yeah. So I mean, and the

Simone Collins: Catholic Church did that. I mean, they did. It was profoundly influential. Well,

Malcolm Collins (2): in which case I would respond to then why is it that the non-Catholic, European countries are more economically developed than the Catholic ones?

Simone Collins: I mean, that's the thing. Yeah. Then you had the Protestants. Who didn't have those rules and those rules. Basically you had like this sort of [00:14:00] Protestant rum spring of cousin marriage and then you had like a closing again.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, and the Jews don't have these rules as far as I know. Jews do cousin marriages fairly frequently.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Do they? Yeah. Yeah. I think I have some stats later in here that, that cover that as, as of where we are today with cousin marriage, it's legal in about 18 to 27 states. So, it, it sort of depends on the conditions. It's illegal in, in 24 to 32 states. So more often than not in the United States, you can't marry your cousin.

Many of the states that ban cousin marriage recognize the marriages if they're performed elsewhere, but not all of them. So even if like you marry in a. Legal to marry your cousin. Where,

Malcolm Collins (2): where can't you still be married? Orthodox Jews, by the way, do frequently get married to their cousins.

Simone Collins: Okay, well there you go.

I don't have a specific listing of states. I don't care. You gotta look it up, man. Except that, here's the thing, second cousin and beyond is totally legal. Like

Malcolm Collins (2): everywhere. Well, second cousin and beyond, it's completely pointless from a genetic standpoint. No, no, no. You still have

Simone Collins: risk to the second cousin level.

We're gonna get to the risk and the, the, the stuff in a [00:15:00] bit, but I also also wanna cover briefly the history of mixed race marriages. In, in, in, there is actually a lot more mixed race marriage in early US history than I expected. In in US history.

I cut this section out because it was blindingly boring.

Malcolm Collins (2): Get to what, what's the point of what you're talking about? What is this? Where is the good that's coming from this?

Simone Collins: The good. Okay, so you don't want me to go over anymore?

Malcolm Collins (2): These are pointless. These aren't famous. This isn't Einstein. This isn't Darwin. This is random people who are famous.

Simone Collins: Miranda Carey. We had all these Yeah, there's, there's a lot of famous people, but sure.

We'll go into the benefits of both cousin marriage and mixed race marriage. Third cousin marriages have been found to yield the highest reproductive success. So you have, they have more children on average and more grandchildren on average compared with both closer relatives, like first and second cousins and very distant partners.

That's why I'm like. No. Third, the

Malcolm Collins (2): ideal genetic distance is third cut, third

Simone Collins: or fourth. You wanna marry your third? Yeah, go on 23 and me. Connect with everyone you can. And when you find a third and the fourth cousin, just like, go for it. You go in for the kill, you know, Hey man. Be [00:16:00] like, Hey, I've heard we're an optimal genetic match.

I saw you were my third cousin. Can I get your number? Yeah, yeah. This is the new pickup line people. I, I think part of this has to do with cultural compatibility. Like, you know, you, you built this theory in the Practice Guide to Crafting Religion. That culture and religion evolved alongside our biology for a long, long time.

And when you marry someone who's more related to you, you're also more likely to share the same kind of instinctual reactions to culture and to traditions. And you're able to have this more cohesive life together as a family, which I think contributes to this, this, you know, more prolific. Offspring thing, like your fertility is just gonna be higher.

And I, I think that that makes a lot of sense. But there's, I I, I was, when doing this research, I was wondering like, what about this, this, those experiments, the sweaty t-shirt experiments where women supposedly preferred men with. Jeans that were different from their own right. So I looked into it and what they're doing, what women are, are [00:17:00] specifically doing with these sweaty t-shirt experiments where basically they have male participants sleep in t-shirts without wearing any deodorant, did not showering.

So they like really pick up their scent and then they have women. Like, smell the t-shirts and decide which T-shirt mm-hmm. Corresponds with the man they find most attractive. Like, wh which t-shirt would you bang? Or like, whatever, you know what I mean? And specifically the, the, the men are different.

Like the, the shirts that they're most attracted to are men who are different, but in specifically immune system genes. Which indicates a preference for partners who are likely to produce children with more diverse and robust immune systems. Um mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins (2): So you want them to be culturally and genetically similar, but have a diverse immune system.

Simone Collins: Yes. And I thought, well, like, well then don't. People who are more related have more similar MHC, like these immune system genes.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Simone Collins: And no, actually M-H-M-H-C genes are among the most [00:18:00] diverse in the human genome. And there's hundreds of variants even within populations. Yeah. So third and fourth cousins are very unlikely to have highly similar.

MHC genes at the whole genome level. They may share some, but like just not that many, especially if they're third or fourth. And this is again, why, like you really gotta get that sweet spot of third or fourth and. You, you, you want this too because you're just gonna have a healthier kid. So yeah, I thought, you know, maybe that that's what's going on there, but yeah, just in case you were thinking, well, no, I thought being not related was a good thing, but no also, okay.

There are absolutely 100% benefits to mixed race marriages and let's get to that. So there's this concept of hybrid vi vigor and it applies much more to plants and animals and not humans. But it still does exist in humans. Like the TLDR R is, you can get hybrid vigor, but it depends on several factors.

Ooh,

Malcolm Collins (2): I thought humans were too genetically close for hybrid vigor to exist between populations.

Simone Collins: Not exactly. So it, it, it does apply in, [00:19:00] in humans in specific context, but the effects are less dramatic than those seen implants in livestock. And the advantages depend on genetic distance and health backgrounds.

Did,

Malcolm Collins (2): did you explain hybrid vigor to start? Like mules, stuff like this.

Simone Collins: Can you explain mules? I, I,

Malcolm Collins (2): sorry, mul as a specific example. So, hybrid vigor is a phenomenon in which, when you breed things that are genetically non-related to each other, but related enough to have children with a, one of the most famous examples being

A mule, which is a combination of a donkey and a horse.

Malcolm Collins (2): yeah. Okay. Anyway, one of, one of them produces the other and they are dramatically smarter, dramatically more robust, dramatically higher endurance than either of the parent species.

But they're also, you can't breed which is, which is not what you would get with, with a closer related population. And so the idea is, is that yes, you have this, this period where you wanna be super closely related, like third or fourth cousin. Mm-hmm. And then you

Simone Collins: don't, the

Malcolm Collins (2): benefits

Simone Collins: drop off.

And then the only other reason to like go. To [00:20:00] deviate. You're going super far.

Malcolm Collins (2): Super far.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like much, much farther. But it depends. It depends again. So we're, we're gonna get there. Like basically though the, the human benefits, 'cause I think these are really interesting, increased height, increased cognitive function.

They've been observed in studies with genetically diverse human pairings. The children tend to be taller and score slightly better on educational achievement when their parents consider. Like are, are considerably different in an, in ancestry and there's also a reduced risk of some recessive genetic diseases.

For reference here, she's talking about the child's IQ relative to the parent's iq. , So the increase in iq the child has over the parents, not necessarily in terms of absolute terms.

Simone Collins: Well, I I actually think you see this

Malcolm Collins (2): with, if, if, if you look, and I think anyone who's not like just lying to themselves would tell you that many mixed race pairings are just much more attractive than any.

Simone Collins: Oh, and that's, yeah. That's like the anecdotal thing, is that Yeah, like subjectively, people kind of overwhelmingly [00:21:00] agree

Malcolm Collins (2): agreed.

That like, oh, like white plus Asian is uniquely attractive. Yeah. For example,

Simone Collins: and that could be due to the genetic diversity could also be due to symmetry, which.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, symmetry would only increase his genetic health increase. That's why symmetry is a good proxy for genetic health.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So basically any genetically distant pairing can yield increased average height in cognitive achievement, and then black white pairings could increase sorry, could decrease the risk of a recessive disease.

So that's also great. And then Asian and white pairings. Typically produce increased height and possible better lung function. Really specific stuff. So like the benefits aren't huge, but I think they're non-trivial. But then there are complications. So the most important one, and you've pointed this out in a couple different podcasts, which is what inspired me to go, yeah.

Because I only knew about

Malcolm Collins (2): the black white one, which can be a complication and you found it in other [00:22:00] populations. So to, to start the black white one is well, the average white

Simone Collins: European population gestation is 40 weeks, 280 days. The average black and Asian population gestation is 39 weeks.

Malcolm Collins (2): I didn't know about Asians here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, and so, and, and that means that if you are a white man. You marry a Asian or black woman, your mixed race baby might get ejected a little bit sooner than ideal. Yes, it

Malcolm Collins (2): basically does. They've done studies on this.

Simone Collins: No, they have, yeah. So there's a genetic mismatch between black mothers and, and white European babies and Asian mothers too.

They can lead the mother's body to initiate labor earlier than the fetus is developmentally ready. And this, this gestational timing is. It's, it's programmed by maternal genetics. So the, this just can't, mothers can't change this. So mothers with a black mother and a white father. Have a higher risk of low birth rate, premature birth rate, poor fetal growth compared to other birth combinations.

And, and research finds [00:23:00] worse outcomes like higher risk of preterm birth, lower birth rate, risk of stillbirth too, and infant mortality when the mother's genetics favor earlier birth. And the fetus is genetics favor a longer gestation. So here's where like the limitations to, like, it depends on who you are and.

And what your genetic heritage is. If you're a white dude, you need to think very carefully a about the risks or plan around the risks if you are marrying a black or Asian woman. Also, I didn't know that gestational diabetes and prematurity with Asian white couples is, is a risk too. So there's like research with Asian and white couples shows increased risk for gestational gen, diabetes, and variable risks for birth rate and prematurity.

So again, this is not just black populations, which is what you thought. And then maybe the obesity risk is higher in, in ethnically mixed individuals. It appears to be slightly elevated compared to both parent populations, which I don't know what it could be like. Maybe like metabolic [00:24:00] programming doesn't work well with mixed race.

Like that one, no one really understands yet. And then the other thing that, that really hits mixed race couples, which I think is probably, if you were gonna ask me, I would say this is the biggest factor is just cultural mismatch. That you have different parents, different cultures, and also if you're coming from a really different genetic background, again to that point, like your biology has evolved for thousands of years alongside a specific culture that is very different from the culture alongside which your partner.

Their biology has evolved. So there's that. And then of course, yeah, cause marriage is also not perfect. The major risk is that the kid inherits a recessive genetic trait from two parents. It's just more risky if they're related. 'cause you're gonna have more roll of the tice that you're going to get, you know, from both parents, the recess recessive trait, and then end up with it.

But it's so much lower than I thought. Like I thought marrying your cousin was like, oh, you're screwed now. Like you're gonna have deformed kids.

Malcolm Collins (2): But so in most cultures throughout human history, when they talk about the vast majority, [00:25:00] I've talked about this on other episodes, but it's an interesting point, is cross cousin marriages actually have a lower chance of leading to genetic deformities than non cousin marriages if you're in a tribal environment, which is why the vast majority of human cultures have preferred cousin marriage at, if you look historically interesting, and people would ask, why do cross cousin marriages lead to lower amounts of genetic degradation?

And it's because protect you about this. So across cousin marriage to explain is when you marry the opposite gendered cousin to that parent,

Speaker 2: right? So

Malcolm Collins (2): it would be marrying my father's sister's kids or marrying my mother's brother's kids. Mm-hmm. And you could say, why is that less likely in a small tribe to lead to genetic problems than non-US marriages?

And the answer is because that's about the only person in the tribe you can be sure is not a half sibling of yours. Because it, yeah.

Simone Collins: Because studies of sibling, sibling meetings find that 43 to 50% of their offspring do have serious health issues. Mm-hmm. Including tribal, including gender abnormalities and [00:26:00] intellectual disabilities.

And yet only 10% of first cousin marriages. Can produce issues.

Malcolm Collins (2): Right? Right. And in tribal environments you get a lot of infidelity. And so anyone in the the tribe could technically be your half brother or sister, except for a cross cousin, because it's very unlikely that siblings would sleep with each other.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So that, that makes a lot of sense. 'cause sibling is like. No, really don't go there.

Malcolm Collins (2): But this is actually even the, the, the, the single cousin marriages, it's causing a lot of genetic problems in environments where you get this happening for many generations. Yeah. Like within some immigrant groups in the UK that we cannot speak of.

Yeah. But it's causing major genetic degradation in these

Simone Collins: populations. Oh. I thought that it was more of an issue of father daughter pairings. No,

Malcolm Collins (2): the father daughter pairings is really big within. I thought that's what showed up subgroup that we can't talk about. Yeah.

Simone Collins: But everybody knows, well you say cousin nonsense.

That was like, no, no.

Malcolm Collins (2): Cousin still matters.

Simone Collins: Cousin still matters. No. So like, and yeah, with first cousins, the rate of. [00:27:00] Something bad happening. Like a, like a genetic problem is double a normal, like coupling a, an unrelated coupling, but like double just means four to 6% versus two to 3% for unrelated couples.

So it's one of those things where like, you help me with this, like when I had a fever in like early in this pregnancy and I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna cause like, you know, spina bifida or something and you're like, 'cause you know I have a 10 x the risk of it now. And you're like, yeah, but 10 X puts you at like.

3% or something. So I, I appreciate your pointing that little detail out about increased odds. But basically once you get to third cousins are farther there's no, okay. How related are we? You've been leaving the audience. Well, I just for the takeaways. Yeah. We'll, we will wrap it up. The TLDR of Cousin Marriage Safety, most major medical organizations consider marriages beyond second cousins to pose no significant risk to offspring.

The chance of both parents carrying the same recessive disease just [00:28:00] falls so dramatically it doesn't even really matter anymore. So you should just marry your third or fourth cousin, or as a white woman, you should marry an Asian or black man. And as an Asian, our audience is gonna love that. Simone, you should marry a white woman.

And if you're a white dude and you insist on being a passport, bro, just like, maybe stick, I'll point out one

Malcolm Collins (2): counter argument here that you might not be considering. Okay. Is that of all the ethnic groups in the United States and I can put a graph on screen here. The lowest fertility rate is mixed people, and I think it's a cultural

Simone Collins: mismatch.

It's stressful, it's hard.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't pick up pride in either of your identities often, and so it leads to, I mean, if you're like, I wanna pass my genes on, it may not be the best strategy for that, even if you get a short term boost.

Simone Collins: Yeah, absolutely. Also, like in the end, I think when you and I are looking for partners for our kids, what we're really gonna care about is that they're, they're both young, that there are general signs of fitness in both health and [00:29:00] performance.

You know, they're successful, they're ambitious, they're driven, they're capable of getting stuff done. So I, I don't think I'm gonna curate that much about relatedness or race and more about those factors and like also like how successful are their parents and how good do their parents look as they age?

Like, do they age well? Like, are they genetically healthy?

Malcolm Collins (2): You always gotta check out the parents. My, my mom, my mom and dad always told me that They said look at the mom if you wanna know what she's gonna look like in 20 years.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, okay, I'm gonna send you on WhatsApp. The screenshot from 23 me of our partner relatedness.

I think you'll be surprised. There you go. Our, our kinetic relationship, 0%, 0%. We didn't weep people. I mean, I was shocked. I was shocked. We're not really. How can this be? How can we not be related? I was certain that we were related. No, you weren't. I was too. That's why I was like, oh, I've gotta, I've gotta gotta find this out.

' cause I mean, this is gonna be [00:30:00] great, you know, we can humiliate ourselves online by showing up. Everyone was saying, oh, the cousin marriage. The cousin marriage. Yeah. Didn't you say that? Like one, one, someone online had like nicknamed us the Cromwell twins or something. Yeah. I mean we, yeah, and, and then there's also the, the, the, that one conspiracy theory from really early on that we were just literally the same person, just like cross-dressing and filming separately.

But yeah, who knew? You're not my cousin. I'm so sad. We're, we're not optimal for my new system. You're not my third or fourth cousin, not even my first cousin. Sorry, Malcolm didn't mean to. Well, I love

Malcolm Collins (2): you Simone. And even if you're not my cousin, even if you're not my cousin,

Simone Collins: tragedies abound. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): no, I think cousin marriages are one of these things that in the future we're going to have to normalize you again.

Yeah, because we're going to need to normalize to genetically isolating ourselves from mainstream populations. Mm-hmm. If we begin to see a dis genetic spiral in the mainstream population, which we're [00:31:00] already seeing well, and also like as

Simone Collins: marriages are so much easier, like you can now screen embryos for all sorts of conditions.

You know, and it also cousin marriage populations like already do this. There, there are populations all around the world. Did you, Jews do this?

Malcolm Collins (2): Your Orthodox Jews do this for taste Actually, yeah. And also there's a

Simone Collins: community in Africa that do it. There was a, a girl who at used to attend, woman who used to attend our like cocktail parties who at one point like went to Africa to do a story on a specific community that.

To genetic testing for pairings like this. So no, this is pervasive and common and now more superpower than ever. Like you can absolutely. I mean, you could even marry a sibling now and like, you know, probably. But you're

Malcolm Collins (2): gonna need this for like spaceships and stuff. You know, when you hundred percent like your solar travel, the populations aren't gonna be that big.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): You're going to need to normalize ways to genetically, so I would, I would say in most good endings for humanity cousin marriages have been renormalize within the next 500 years.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is this just us trying to impose our [00:32:00] Appalachian cu culture

Malcolm Collins (2): on, well, it does have one of the highest rates of incest porn searches states.

Simone Collins: They're,

Malcolm Collins (2): they're into it. I was like, oh, God. You know? Oh boy.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean the whole, yeah, like kissing cousins. Trope stereotypes exist for a reason.

Malcolm Collins (2): Sorry,

Simone Collins: but Yeah.

Malcolm Collins (2): But you have clan based, family based cultures, as we've talked about. You're gonna get more cousin marriages. So it would've been very normal for the regions that we're descended from to have cousin marriages.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, yeah. Again, we're just like, I think the big stigma against cousin marriage is this. Catholic, driven from like the ninth century on don't marry your Cousins thing, which I really think, I mean, all I I, I do think it was about amassing power and about collecting. Dispensation fees because you know, cousins still definitely got married.

They just had to pay for it.

Malcolm Collins (2): Well, I mean, especially if you're in one of the royal lineages, every one in the royal lineages was within seven gen [00:33:00] degrees of somebody else within one of the royal

Simone Collins: lineages. I mean, yeah,

Malcolm Collins (2): there wasn't a lot. That's like a comical law just means like basically every, every royal, every noble has to pay us to get married.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but also like smaller villagers and stuff, like people

Malcolm Collins (2): not a biblical reason for it.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, I didn't look into like their reasoning for it, like when it, when it happened. Sure. It pissed people off 'cause it just made things more expensive. But yeah. Interesting stuff. Surprises and twists. And thanks for inspiring this episode in the first place because I.

Was shocked by that gestational information and it is a big deal. Like being born premature is, is really rough on kids. We know that from one of our kids who was born premature and is still behind in growth because of that prematurity, I mean, you took him to the endocrinologist and who's basically just like.

Yeah, no, he's fine. Like all his blood work looks fine. Everything else looks fine. He was just born [00:34:00] premature and just that four weeks.

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. And, and that had a major effect on one of our kids. So we're saying this is people who've gone through this ourselves.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. It was so we know, but just, I mean, like, you know, if you're a white dude looking to passport, bro, it just prepare.

I guess. I, there's not really a whole lot you can do though. That's the tough thing is like, if you. You can't change a woman's genetic programming in terms of like when she goes into labor. You can ask her at what week of gestation her mother went into labor. 'cause that's often a pretty good predictor.

But mm-hmm. I don't know. Good luck guys. But that's my advice. Yay.

Malcolm Collins (2): Anyway, I love you. Yeah. Your advice is get married to your cousin. That's where you look first. Marry your

Simone Collins: third or fourth cousin. That's right. Log on to 20, train me. Go to ancestry.com. This is your new dating website. This is how you do it.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): Could be in the future. I mean, I, I think when we put together the, the index for the Teop Puritan people, [00:35:00] everyone will be like, are they the weird ones who practice like third cousin marriage only

Simone Collins: arranged marriages with cousins?

Malcolm Collins (2): Yeah. I'd be like, yeah, it's, it's that one. It's

Simone Collins: that weird one. That's us.

That's us. It's funny though, because there's that one Nordic country that like has a registry to make sure you're not. Dating your cousin, right? Yeah. So, you know, like Iceland

Speaker 2: or whatever

Simone Collins: gonna have to, although I'm sure it's just first cousins, I'm sure. Like honestly, I bet that they've super normalized it.

They're like, well, phew, we're not first cousins, so we're good to go. Yeah. Yeah. God. All right. I will let you nap and then you'll have mi Miso soup for dinner and I love you very much.

Malcolm Collins (2): I love you so much. And yeah, miso Soup would be great for dinner tonight.

Simone Collins: Yeah. You're so hungry.

Malcolm Collins (2): It's a very delicious dish.

And I'll, I'll do a little bit a side of

Simone Collins: mac and cheese and pesto and cheese.

Malcolm Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll saute it with a little pesto.

Malcolm Collins (2): Ooh. Sauteing mac and cheese. That's how you really know.

Simone Collins: I mean, you're worth it, [00:36:00] Malcolm, don't you think? I

Malcolm Collins (2): don't think so. I think I'm not even, I'm not even related to you, Simone.

I am unrelated trash. We just. Call this. I'm a trash pairing. I'm the same ethnicity, unrelated.

Simone Collins: Sad that, yeah, maybe this is just the, this is the end of our relationship. We thought we were so, I was shocked too. I weirdly was shocked. But anyway, I'm gonna start your chili tonight too. So if you have any specific requests, I've already prepared the beans, so I'm gonna get that.

Okay. So we're

Malcolm Collins (2): doing describe the ingredients, if you remember. So, yeah,

Simone Collins: hold on. I'll hold

Malcolm Collins (2): up.

Simone Collins: Him, him. Based on award-winning brisket. Chili recipes. We've got beef brisket, trimmed and cut into half inch cubes. Four slices of thick bacon, kosher salt, black pepper, onion powder for seasoning the meat. [00:37:00] And then for the chili, we've got two cups of white onion diced, two bell peppers, diced.

Gonna use the frozen ones per your request. Four to five. CLOs of garlic, minced or pressed. I'm gonna use our minced garlic. Two tablespoons of chili powder. Ideally a Texas blend. Sorry guys. I'm probably gonna also maybe throw in some of your Sichuan chili powder.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Instead. 'cause I think that's more fun.

Gotta have a, a Malcolm twist. The tablespoon of smoked paprika. A tablespoon of cumin. Dried oregano, Chipotle chili powder or crushed red pepper to taste dried thyme. Optional one half. We're not doing this one half cup of strong brewed coffee or substitute beer or extra broth. We're not doing that, but,

Malcolm Collins (2): but it would have a very big impact on flavor.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, if you want me to take an espresso pod out and just throw it in, but I'm not gonna do that.

Malcolm Collins (2): That's a, it's

Simone Collins: gross. And half an espresso pod. Broth. [00:38:00] And tomatoes. And then the beans,

Malcolm Collins (2): so, huh. Any of that you'd replace with coconut milk?

Simone Collins: I can replace broth with coconut milk and put in bullion cubes, but now we're going way off the grid.

Okay. Well, we'll stick

Malcolm Collins: with the broth. We'll stick with the broth you want, I

Simone Collins: mean, I can, no, no, no, no. Are you sure?

Malcolm Collins (2): And for the coffee, we, we have coffee,

Simone Collins: we have, we have Nespresso pods for the guests who stay,

Malcolm Collins (2): I don't know, are they filled with a liquid or are they filled with a

Simone Collins: They're filled with the grounds and I would need to steep them and prepare the coffee.

So I say we skip it. I just wouldn't I get where they're going with this. I would rather kick this up with Indian spices after we have it going for a day.

Malcolm Collins (2): I like that idea. You know what's up?

Simone Collins: We have the Kar, we have the, like all these really [00:39:00] great blends that I feel like would be more to your taste instead of this bitter kick.

Because what they're really, if they're like, they want a strong beer or coffee, they're really just trying to add a kick. I would rather see a kick from like sour cream as a topping and then this great undercurrent of rich. I think you're right.

Malcolm Collins (2): And you know what's up, Simone?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): All right.

Simone Collins: Oh, I have to sear the brisket first.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't need to sear it first.

Simone Collins: You want the flavor the right way.

Malcolm Collins (2): Malcolm. It's not even brisket. We're using Chuck.

Simone Collins: Well, we have to, we have to sear it in the bacon fat.

Malcolm Collins (2): Oh.

Simone Collins: So we cook the bacon slices until crisp. Oh, yum. Transfer bacon aside. But leaf fat and pan, and then. Then we sear the cubed brush.

Then what I wouldn't do is do it in

Malcolm Collins (2): cubes. I would do it in longer sections.

Simone Collins: Why the cubes area to absorb the ba, the fat.

Malcolm Collins (2): So you do it in like longer sections. Okay. Do you [00:40:00] understand what I'm suggesting here? The

Simone Collins: diminishing surface area? No.

Malcolm Collins (2): Not diminishing surface. Oh, you

Simone Collins: want thin? You want me to essentially create bacon slices of brisket, like bacon slice,

Malcolm Collins (2): not, not bacon size.

Small, but regular steak size small. The reason is you will understand when I explain. The reason is when you were doing really long, slow cooking periods on meat, like this was the point of it breaking down. When it is in cubes, it doesn't break down as quickly because the cubes just tighten up and get smaller.

Simone Collins: Okay, fine. I'll do strips. We'll do the strips.

Malcolm Collins (2): Alright, thank you Simone. I have, sorry. Sorry to annoy you.

Simone Collins: Oh gosh. And you have to pres saute the onions and peppers too.

Malcolm Collins (2): You don't have to.

Simone Collins: And then add the garlic. No, I really do think that this initial, like higher heat cooking followed by just a very slow burn is, is kind of what we're going for.

Malcolm Collins (2): All right. I love you so much. Bye. I love you too.

Simone Collins: Bye. [00:41:00]

Malcolm Collins (2): Bye not cousin.

Malcolm Collins: I will try.

Simone Collins: Okay. And I was gonna do hot dogs again for dinner. Unless curry, I can do curry for you instead. You prefer that?

Malcolm Collins: I prefer something easy on the stomach, so maybe pasta as pesto.

Simone Collins: You only have a tiny smidgen of pesto left, so

Malcolm Collins: probably not much. Maybe pasta with just cheese, pasta, and I'll put some pesa on it.

Simone Collins: What I mean, we have leftover macaroni and cheese. I just,

Malcolm Collins (2): they'll have leftover macaroni and cheese.

Simone Collins: Seems like you're slumming it. If you have an upset stomach, we can do something.

Malcolm Collins (2): Then you could do miso.

Simone Collins: Would you like miso soup?

Malcolm Collins (2): I'd love miso soup. Okay. Do we have the ingredients for miso? So soup?

Simone Collins: I believe so.

I'll either give you mac and cheese leftovers or,

Malcolm Collins (2): I mean, I saw [00:42:00] miso in the fridge. I just dunno how much you need for a batch.

Simone Collins: I will work it out and then I'll do that so that you have something a little more tasty for you. And if I need to dump out half of the fish, bonito, flake fish teeth that we have to make to do it properly, I will do so.

I'll do what it takes. That still smells. I mean fishy. Of course it does. Alright. And, and

Malcolm Collins (2): you do it with the seaweed. The seaweed was really good last time. I, I don't need the, just not as

Simone Collins: much. 'cause Yeah, that a little goes a long way. I didn't know how much it expands

Malcolm Collins (2): once you Oh no. You didn't put in too much seaweed last time you put in, you said I did.

No, I thought it was the, I know I said the tofu. I didn't really need any tofu.

Simone Collins: There's not gonna be any tofu. Last time you said there was too much seaweed, but

Malcolm Collins (2): I did. Okay. Yeah.

Simone Collins: So I've learned, I'll learn but. For now, I'll kick us off because you're, you're sleepy and you can't stay up by quitting all night, every night.

Okay.

Malcolm Collins (2): I can. I am an amazing coder now. I have learned, [00:43:00] I'm making so much progress. You

Simone Collins: gotta, you gotta pace yourself. But I, I will, I will. We're letting Jesus take the wheel. Or worse, worse, a woman. So let's, let's go. Okay. You ready? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're so tired looking. Okay.

Speaker 7: 10 today, which they're very proud of. Extremely proud of, and now they're trying to get her inside it and drive her around and it's really cute. That's how I look. Yeah.

Speaker 10: What is this? This is a car close. Daddy, watch out. Make sure she doesn't fall. Is she driving on the Yeah.[00:44:00]

Speaker 11: I love that.

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe