What if the leadership frameworks we’ve relied on for decades are fundamentally broken for today’s world? In this thought-provoking conversation, Pascal sits down with Jeffrey Rogers—his collaborator of nearly a decade—to explore how leaders can navigate sustained uncertainty and systematic disruption.

Jeffrey, an expert in organizational learning and futures thinking, challenges the “Good to Great” era of one-size-fits-all leadership models. Instead, he advocates for meta-learning: the ability to learn how to learn, adapt frameworks contextually, and build organizations that can transform repeatedly. They dive deep into the tension between efficiency and experimentation, why the “middle horizon” (5-10 years) is so hard to envision, and how generative AI fits into organizational learning—spoiler: it’s not the efficiency tool you think it is.

Key Topics Covered:

Why best practices are dead and what replaces them in high-uncertainty environments
The efficiency vs. learning paradox: how to balance execution with experimentation
Generative AI’s real value: rapid prototyping, not scaling (and why that matters)
The futures cone and how to think about multiple possible futures
Practical advice for middle managers when leadership won’t listen
Building learning systems that connect across your organization

TMS Top 10: Ashes moments

Test Match Special

Intro

The AI-powered Podcast Player