Today I’m joined by Chaplain Betty Clark, a hospital chaplain, community leader, and lifelong caregiver, and Dr. Jessica Zitter, a critical and palliative care physician, author of Extreme Measures, and filmmaker. Their friendship sits at the heart of the new documentary The Chaplain and the Doctor, born from years of working side by side at Oakland’s Highland Hospital. Together, they’ve built trust across lines of race, faith, and hierarchy, exploring what it really means to care for patients and for each other. In our conversation, Betty and Jessica reflect on the art of chaplaincy, the courage it takes to face bias and racism in medicine, the healing power of storytelling, and the idea of the “wounded healer.” What emerges is a moving portrait of friendship, honesty, and grace, an invitation to stay, as Betty put it, “blessed in the mess.”

Warmly,Emily and The Nocturnists

Favorite moments from this week’s episode

“Look with your ears, listen with your eyes.”“I tell volunteer chaplains to look with your ears and listen with your eyes. You’re looking for things that may not mean what they seem. You might see a rosary hanging on the bed and think someone’s Catholic, but maybe it’s just decoration. Observation is sacred—it’s how we really hear people.”

A Thunderbolt Realization“There are moments in life when you realize you’ve been thinking about something wrong. That’s what happened when I called Betty. I realized how much armor doctors wear—how scared we are, how defensive. Once you see that, it’s hard to unsee it. That’s when I opened up to her, and to friendship.”

Language and Respect“There’s certain language you don’t use with African Americans. Don’t say ‘we’re going to wean you off this medicine’—that’s baby talk. Say, ‘we’ll lower your dose as your pain improves.’ Language matters. It’s about respect.”

Bias at the Bedside“I’ve been that doctor at 3 a.m., thinking: oh, the patient in bed five with sickle cell, asking for more Dilaudid. Working with Betty made me realize—this is bias. It’s not about being a bad person. It’s about how the tired human brain works. But we have to see it to change it.”

Blessed in the Mess“People ask how I’m doing, and I say: I’m blessed in the mess. Blessed in spite of the mess. Sometimes blessed because of the mess. However it goes, I’m blessed.”

Join our free storytelling workshop: Trust in Medicine

We’re hosting a virtual workshop on October 29 from 5:30pm-7pm PT/8:30pm-10pm ET to introduce Trust in Medicine, our upcoming series. Come explore what it means to build, lose, and rediscover trust in healthcare, and learn how to share your own story for consideration on the podcast.

Call for stories: Trust in Medicine series

We’re excited to announce our new podcast series, Trust in Medicine.This series explores how trust in healthcare is being built, broken, and reimagined in a rapidly changing world—where shifting guidelines, systemic inequities, and new digital voices all shape how patients and clinicians experience medicine today. Submit your story today.

Uncertainty in Medicine is a 2025 Signal Award winner!

We’re thrilled to share that The Nocturnists: Uncertainty in Medicine has won two Signal Awards! Visit the links below to view the official listing.

Gold in Indie Podcast, Limited Series & Specials

Silver in Health & Wellness, Limited Series & Specials

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