In this podcast, two old friends in and out of journalism talk about the Middle East war, which comes to feel more like a contest in war crimes. Steven Erlanger joins us—he’s the New York Times‘ chief diplomatic correspondent in Europe.

Steven Erlanger.

We start with the terms Steve recently put forth in the Times: the assumptions—or some of the many, many assumptions—that have been upended by this war. The thought, for example, even in Bibi Netanyahu, that Hamas could manage Gaza as an open-air prison, or that Israel is invulnerable to attack.