The Complexity of Identity and Discrimination

Welcome to Based Camp! In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the controversial topic of "us-versus-them" mindsets. Why is this behavior so often villainized in modern culture? Are there situations where group identity and rivalry are not only natural but necessary? The hosts explore the roots of group dynamics, the role of stereotypes, the impact of cultural and political polarization, and how these forces shape our society. They also discuss the double standards in how group pride is celebrated or condemned, the effects of AI and media on social divides, and the future of identity in an increasingly balkanized world. Whether you agree or disagree, this episode will challenge your assumptions and spark thoughtful debate.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. It's exciting to be here with you today. Today we are going to be discussing. Us versus them mindsets. '

Simone Collins (3): cause

Malcolm Collins: when I, you know, sometimes I'll post transcript of our episodes into, you know, AI to see what it thinks of the arguments that we're

Simone Collins (2): using.

Oh no. And it just accuses you of us versus, and, and the most

Malcolm Collins: frequent complaint I get Yeah. Is it uses the quote unquote fallacy of an UPS versus them mindset. A fallacy, and I'm like a, it's a mindset.

Simone Collins (2): How is a mindset invalidated, even if it's like an evil mindset? It's not, no, they don't even call it a mindset.

Malcolm Collins: They call it a a, a psychological bias, an us versus them psychological bias. And so we'll get into like why ai. Think that this is such a bad thing, because I hear it even more from AI than I do from typical urban monocultural people. But I do see it from the urban monoculture. We'll be like, oh, well that's the us versus them, you know, fallacy or whatever, or bias or you know, psychological, and I'm like.

This is actually really messed up. And I would argue that the core reason why us versus them has been so widely framed as a bias is because it allows members of any, any potential group and the urban monoculture has evolved this as a framework. The urban monoculture is sort of what other people call, like woke or broadly progressivism.

It allows. And, and what's what's interesting is, is they will tell you, don't use an US versus a mindset while using it themselves when talking about the deplorables or, or, or, or Trump voters or something like that. Right? Hundred percent. Yeah. Like clearly they have an US versus mindset, but then they will tell you, Hey, you know, you, you can't adopt this mindset.

And it's a strategy that specifically evolved to prevent you from seeing them as the enemy and rallying around opposing them. There is a them and they are working against your interests. Like, this is the thing and this is why I'm so against this. Hey, I hate us versus them. It makes sense for you as a human to divide humanity into groups that oppose your interests and groups that are aligned with your interests.

Because there are groups that are opposed to your interest and even more than just groups that are opposed to your interests. There are, groups that are explicitly around, you know, whether it's racial or gender or ethnocultural groups that have a banded together specifically so that people like them can outcompete people like you, right?

And they make it, the urban monoculture makes it. The most punishable for individuals within the groups that it met. It victimizes most frequently to create a group identity as an us to oppose any them. Mm-hmm. So, recently there was a post I saw that I saw it was really shocking that somebody just nakedly had a publication turned down because the paper right now was not taking publications from white men.

We're just not gonna do that. No, no, we haven't done enough. None. That is just. Racism and sexism. But if you said, Hey. White men feel that there is a group of individuals who are opposing them in part around gender or ethnic lines and that it makes sense for them to have some sort of comradery around that in terms of opposing that the urban monoculture would.

Completely have a, a conniption fit. Whereas if you look at the culture, like the groups that it, it, it, it uplifts like it well pretends to uplift. See our episode on God, what, what's, what was the episode title where we showed that basically it equality

Simone Collins (2): is something like, oh, the racism of equality.

Racism of equality, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But like black culture, for example a if you look at Kwanza, like a specific part of Kwanzaa is only shopping at black owned businesses.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Like it doesn't, it doesn't see any issue as this yet. If somebody said, I only wanna shop at white owned businesses. Right. And, and, and keep in mind, I mean, presumably

Simone Collins (2): just imagining anyone being like, support your white-owned businesses this week, that would, I just, yeah.

I don't know, like.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, and people can be like, oh, come on, these businesses aren't advantage. Well, first of all, there's all sorts of loans that they can get that clearly makes them an advantage. Oh my gosh, yes. Like, yeah, but they're subject to racism in terms of who shops there. And I'm like, we can see that.

That's objectively not the case. Well also like how do you find out?

Simone Collins (2): How would you know that? I mean, unless they actively advertise it.

Malcolm Collins: They do actively advertise it if you go to Google Map. Oh yeah. Because it's to their

Simone Collins (2): advantage. But like

Malcolm Collins: if, if you go to Google Maps or if you go to Yelp it will say like black or a woman owned business.

That's because they

Simone Collins (2): know it will help them. But if they thought it would, right.

Malcolm Collins: That's the point I'm making here. Okay. The very fact that they are opting into listing was this identification. And I have never seen a business advertise as a white or male owned business. Imagine

Simone Collins (2): a male owned,

Malcolm Collins: proudly male owned since 1984.

We do that. Can we do that? Oh my God. I'm gonna do that with our businesses. Proudly a white male owned business. Um, Wow. Uh, No. No. But the point being is that the reason why people don't advertise with that is because they know that there is a prejudice against, white male owned businesses.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, absolutely.

Malcolm Collins: And, and, and that they will get fewer customers while there is a, a, a positive prejudice towards women or, I, I love they say minority owned when these days minority is such like a, a self opt-in identification. One of the, the funniest. Ways this shows is, is Native Americans have like abysmal fertility rates, and yet the quote unquote Native American population has grown by like 90% in the past 10 years.

And it's just due to deciding to identify as Native American, like Pocahontas. Elizabeth Warren what was she like one 17th Native American or something? I

Simone Collins (2): thought she didn't turn out to have any.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, maybe not at all.

Simone Collins (2): Indigenous ancestry. Yeah, that was my understanding.

Malcolm Collins: But the point here being is, and, and I'm making in this wider argument, is the reason they're imposing this restriction around ados versus mindset on you is so that you cannot recognize what they are doing to you.

And so that the people who they victimize most cannot fight back. That's the entire purpose of this.

Simone Collins (3): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so now we'll look at the arguments that they use against us versus a mindset to point out that there are fairly stupid arguments. So oversimplification and binary thinking. It reduces complex issues to good verse evil, right verse wrong, ignoring nuances.

For instance, people tend to. Excuse flaws of their own group, attributing them to external factors while blaming inherent traits for the same issues. In outgroups, this can escalate minor disagreements into full blown divisions, as seen in political polarization where one side defies itself and demonizes the other, sorry, deifies itself and demonizes the other.

And I'm like, I don't think that that's true at all. The, the opposite political party is genuinely, I think, pretty vile right now. Like I, I, I don't see that much. I like redeeming when we attack them, we attack them because. Of what they are attempting to accomplish and what they say they want, which is a, a, a racially segregated society.

Like I don't think that that's a good thing. A racially segregated society was Jews at the bottom. I think that maybe we've seen this before and it is bad and it makes sense to be like, ah, them that they're doing the thing, the thing they've done before. We need to stop this. Kristen,

Simone Collins (2): not a great thing.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: no, not a great thing. No. It's so funny, like the, the freaking bizarre, like. The same people we know, like educated, productive people. They'll like, share stuff with us that is obviously made up about things that's like happening in Gaza right now. And I'm like, you, you can tell this is obviously fake, right?

Like you, you know, this is fake. And no, they, they won't like the, the, the tendency to want to see Jews in the most negative possible light, I think is incredibly high across populations, in part because, okay, well, that's a whole other video. I'm not gonna get too far into that, but I, but I, but I will say that we've seen this before, like, I, I, I find it crazy.

That was in my lifetime. I remember walking through London at night. I don't go out at night and seeing an angry, very large mob shouting you know, from the river to the sea marching through the streets and, and very explicitly anti-Semitic things. And, then seeing, you know, death, death to the IDF and stuff like that at the the, the concert, this giant concert, this giant crowd of progressives seeing this.

Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the id. F death. Death to the IDF. Death. Death to the IDF. Hell yeah. From the river, Tennessee

So, just in case you forgot, , the IDF is a mandatory conscription service for all people of a certain age in Israel. , So when you say death to the IDF, or at least all Jews of a certain age, , you were saying death to the Jews. When you say from the river to the sea, that is the entire land of Israel.

You were saying you went to eradicate all of the Jews in their homeland.

Malcolm Collins: so, so, so people could be like, oh, well, you know, you shouldn't lump this group in as evil. And I'm like, they're trying to divide us into an ethnic caste system, which gives us the bottom, like maybe we do need to treat this seriously. Right? And, and they, they do directly oppose the interest of individuals like myself.

I mean, anybody who is. A white male in our existing economy knows very well that there are many jobs you just can't apply to anymore. I mean, I remember being told really destroying sort of my life's dream. My life's dream was to become a professor at Stanford and at the, at their business school.

Right? And that's where I got my MBA and I, I, I, I, I did classes there and I did. All of the steps, the, the, the career path. I went down the going into VC and private equity through the path of a search fund was the number one most common pass for the professors at the university.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: I, I went down it with that as my intention until one day I'm talking with a professor, he's a very, and he goes, oh, well, you know, obviously this is off the books, but there is a ban on hiring white profe white male professors right now through,

Simone Collins (2): through forever.

Malcolm Collins: Anything other there? There was one pathway that they could be hired if they went through the traditional academic pathway, but not through the becoming a good business person or a well-known public intellectual pathway. And I was just like, well, that sucks.

I think people can, you know, emphasize this because they've seen it in shows and stuff like that, but to actually have it happen in your own life, to work your entire life, to follow all the rules, to achieve your dream job, and then be told, I'm sorry, actually, this was never really available to people who were born with your skin tone.

, Is incredibly disheartening and people can be like, oh, well now we're just doing it to, to you, which you guys did to us. And it's like, my ancestors never did this to you. My ancestors fought and died so that you could be free and equal. You know, as, as I've mentioned, , of the founding members of the f Free state of Jones, 15 of the 50 were either kids of, or siblings of my direct ancestors.

Um, you know, you. You have just flopped the roles. You are acting evil, and there is a reason why we are trying to destroy this system.

Malcolm Collins: That was also, we,

Simone Collins (2): we know young college grads who've just come out and been told again, off the record, listen, we just can't.

Malcolm Collins: Hire you. Yeah. Just don't even try. Yeah. Like we don't hire people of your ethnic group or your Yeah. Like,

Simone Collins (2): Hey, I think you're, you know, a nice guy. You look hardworking, don't bother. I don't want you to waste your time 'cause it's gonna waste your time. That's so sad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And whites need not apply. No, I mean it's a, it's a common thing.

Like it's, it's, it's a and the people who say this isn't a common thing I, I. Like, I'm actually sort of baffled. Are they living in a different reality? Like do they not have white? Well,

Simone Collins (2): I mean, it, it, it, I could see like maybe in. A Midwestern agricultural, you know, farming world. There, there aren't these same quotas based on identity.

People are just hiring practically, and they're absolutely hiring immigrants and they're absolutely hiring locals. Like they're just hiring actually based on, you know, availability, merit, like if they're willing to do the work. I, I do think that we're mostly talking about, honestly, the jobs that are first going to be automated away by ai, those white collar.

Knowledge worker, middle management desk jobs. So it's almost a moot point at this point anyway. And I almost feel like to a certain extent, young white men have been given an advantage because they have been forced out of these jobs before they cease to exist. And they. Are ahead of everyone else and figuring out alternative revenue streams and, and careers that are not going to be on the chopping block of ai.

Instead, and this is why I said I think for example, like women and other people who have a disproportionate advantage in large bureaucracies, in these middle management roles in large companies are going to be extra screwed by the AI revolution. So. Yeah, maybe, maybe it was a good thing, you know?

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it's, it's like if you have a group that is very obviously being discriminated against within a, a social order or by a cultural system the most effective thing you can do is to villainize creating a pan cultural identity. Imagine if during segregation, for example, they had culturally villainized building a sort of pan black identity in the same way that they culturally villainize any sort of like pan white identity within a modern context.

Hmm. Or, or even like minority white, like we often, I don't identify as white as much as I identify as greater Appalachian or backwoods cultural tradition or puritan cultural tradition, both of which I'm descended from.

Simone Collins (2): You're here. I think it's, it is similar. I mean, we've talked about this many times about how we think that the, the concept of, I mean, at least now having spent more time.

Working in Latin America, working with people from various Latin American, like especially South American countries, seeing this concept of being Latino or Latina or Latin, Latin LA tanks, the worst of all in the United States as being so insensitive because they're like, dude, I'm not. Latina or Hispanic.

I'm like, Colombian, I'm Brazilian.

Malcolm Collins: They're trying to force them into this larger group because, but I, you know

Simone Collins (2): what bothers me though? Yeah. And they are trying to force 'em into this larger group. What I don't get is when white people themselves are like, I'm white. When I'm like, I don't, I don't, yeah. Like, I'm like, I'm like you.

I see myself as. A specific subculture that may be predominantly white, but like more has to do with, you know, a specific European geographic region, or more likely just a cultural subculture. Well, I mean, the

Malcolm Collins: reason why it does make sense

Simone Collins (2): for white to all just be one thing.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no, no, no. But for people to attempt to build identity around this or community around this is because that is a shared reason for their discrimination in the same way that like gay people and trans people really have very little in common and probably should not be in the same bucket.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. The

Malcolm Collins: reason why each group was discriminated against historically was largely the same reason.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, like they were, 'cause you're not X you're not hetero, so, right.

Malcolm Collins: So whether, whether I am of the backwoods tradition or I'm a white Catholic, or I am a white, you know, like Cavalier descendant regardless of that.

All of these groups are being discriminated against by the same individuals. And so, when they're attempting to ban together to sort of work towards any form of, of a real equal playing field they, and I love, people can be like, how can you say there's an equal playing field and these groups are making more money than these groups?

And I'm like, well, I mean, there's. Groups that out earn us in an equal playing field. Like I'd note that Japanese immigrants had everything taken from them and now they're out earning white people fairly recent. Well, that's what I was

Simone Collins (2): thinking when, when we were talking about this too, is how like Japanese people, Jews, you know, these have been groups that have faced systemic.

And long-term discrimination. And it has made them sharper in many ways. So are white men really screwed if they're now being discriminated against? Maybe not.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, that's a good point. And you know, forcing them to create their own companies and, and find independent sources of income is also gonna make it easier to create larger families.

Yeah. Especially at higher levels of wealth, which we're actually seeing in the statistics. I've pointed out many times that black Americans, for example, have the lowest fertility rate of all ethnic groups in the United States by a significant margin when they're not in the bottom 20 20% of black income.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Okay, so next reason here, it says To not create this prejudice and discrimination by categorizing people into rigid groups. It fosters exclusion, stereotypes, and even dehumanization. This can manifest in everyday settings like workplaces where teams develop an US versus Zim dynamic that stifles.

Creativity and collaboration. In some cases it contributes to violence and systemic bias, such as policing, where offices view their role as a battle against the bad guy, or officers view their role as a battle. And I'm like, but like that's already happening. Like if you're a group that is already being discriminated against, attempting to be like, Hey.

We should work together. Like that's what, what do you mean? But in, in addition to this, the idea of, of prejudice or stereotypes more broadly, like stereotypes are a useful thing in terms of interacting with the world. People are different. Like diversity would have no value if everyone was exactly the same.

If every human was interchangeable with every other human, then there would be no point to diversity to begin with. So. Because that's the case, because, well, and doesn't the

Simone Collins (2): rivalry also breed healthy competition in a way that makes everyone stronger?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and I will note here when I say diversity is, and I agree with what you just said there that rivalry helps make everyone stronger.

Competition helps make everyone stronger. That's part of why capitalism produces so much more economic, thriving than other economic systems. But God, what was the point I was going to make before,

Simone Collins (2): oh, sorry for interrupting you.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yes. That, that, that stereotypes are very important because they're real, right? Like you, you can build behavioral patterns of specific groups and. Make predictions based on those behavioral patterns. But even more than that, through those patterns, you can build a sense of identity, like the stereotypes of your own group, help you build a sense of identity.

When we look to build a sense of identity for our family, we look to the historic, you know, backwards cultural tradition and the Puritan cultural tradition, the Calvinist cultural tradition, 'cause that's who we are.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And so, I, I. I can't, you know, like if, if, if those groups weren't different from other groups in some way, we wouldn't be able to learn from them, right?

Like I point out to many people and we go into more detail on this than the Pragmatist Guide to Life. The Pragmatist Guide to Relationships, I wanna say, or govern. No. I don't know which one I, we, this was my no crafting religion is where we go into it. That a good example of historic like Calvinist Puritan stereotypes if you're not familiar with what they were, comes from the Ebenezer Scrooge character.

Simone Collins (2): That was definitely religion. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Which is very much just, and, and these are a bunch of negative caricatures, but that doesn't mean that I can't learn from them and develop something from them. I think when many people have a sense of ethnic or cultural pride, many of the things you take pride in are otherwise.

Framed negatively by other people.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like Scrooge was known as incredibly tight with money. It didn't heat the house in the winter. Very, you know, all, all the same with us. Didn't you know, was logical in the way he distributed his, his wealth. He didn't give it to an employee just 'cause they were closer to him.

But he did donate to local shelters. It was made very clear and saved money for that. You know, so why, why does this person, tiny Tim, deserve more from him than the community at large? Just because he's more adjacent to him, you know? We often note that the whole entire story is sort of a corrective grape fantasy of the Calvinist stereotypes of that time period.

And and I read it. I'm just like, Scrooge was right. Scrooge was right from the beginning, man. Stop being so indulgent. You need to learn to be more frugal. You know, it says ate mush every day. But the point I made here is stereotypes, broadly speaking as a society are more beneficial than they are negative.

Simone Collins (2): Well, and people of specific groups who appear to have a lot of pride in their groups. Are the, the ones I see roasting their own groups the most. You know, there's, there's enjoyment of the making fun of, of your own stereotypes. You see this a lot with Mormon culture. You see this with every culture. I mean, look at like comedians, bits.

This is just how it goes.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, and within the urban monoculture, you are very much allowed to make stereotypes about white men. Yeah, there are so many stereotypes that the urban monoculture will say about white men. They'll even shout, like, kill white men. And people won't lose their job over this.

The, I mean, if that's not a sign of an extreme level of racial and gender oppression, normalized was in a culture. And everybody knows like kill hetero white men. Like this is a thing that is said frequently in environments like Tumblr. X in blue sky. Right. I'm sure we've gotten it in a reply to like our tweets before, right?

Along with a, a set of stereotypes. I would rather just normalize stereotypes for everyone instead of have it be they say, oh, we need to ban people making fun of white men. Because that's, that's, that's illogical, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm

Simone Collins (2): all, for everyone being made fun of, come on, let's have, let's have fun.

I. There is though I would point out because there is a little bit of hypo hypocrisy in all this. A very mainstream means of us versus them mentality that is celebrated, longstanding, full of creativity. And no one's complaining about it. I mean, sometimes it leads to property damage and vandalism mm-hmm.

And occasional riots. But it's still not only a celebrated and time on our tradition around the world but a, a huge source of industry and capitalistic profit. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Malcolm Collins: Sports.

Simone Collins (2): Yes, sports rivalries are amazing. But it's funny, and I mean, there's the, the mascot stealing the vandalism.

Did you know about the the Harford versus Yale? We suck card stunt. It's one of my favorite examples of a sports, wait, tell me. Yale students posed as, as Harvard Prep Squad people, they, they, they distributed in this, in this role. Placards to Harvard fans claiming that they would spell out, go Harvard.

You know how like, you know, audiences in a big stadium will put up cards. But then when displayed, the cards actually spelled we suck, which is just. Delightful. I, I, it's a rival, like people love these rivalries and the, what I love about this too is it shows how you can have big time us versus them mentality.

And like actually do some, I mean, that was an innocent prank, but there have been like, there, there have been riots, there have, there have been fights there. It gets intense. And yet everyone's ultimately playing the same game. The rivalries sharpen teams against each other. They motivate

Malcolm Collins: people.

They're fun. I mean, why, why can't we have ethnic rivalries? That, that, I mean, maybe it without the, the riots in the city. Maybe without the riots.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, maybe without the vandalism. I mean, you know

Malcolm Collins: what would be really fun actually. Oh my God. Ethnic based sports teams in the US

Simone Collins (2): you have like, no, no, because there are too many, like ethnic specializations.

Too many ethnic

Malcolm Collins: specializations.

Simone Collins (2): You mean the black, so then, I mean, I don't know if it's like universal. I don't know if everybody wouldn't even,

Malcolm Collins: wouldn't even. Care, like everyone knows the black teams win every year, and so it's for the second spot that you're fighting oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Or would it just become too obvious, too quickly that like, this is actually the order of ethnicities within this sport in terms of competition?

Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. I think, yeah, it's, it's a little better when there's. A shot at excellence. I mean, of course

Malcolm Collins: though, that would do so well as a show. I, I had a reality show I would do that. I would you, you know how they had that one reality show where they divided the teens into women versus men? And it did really poorly.

Poorly, oh my God. It was like a survival.

Simone Collins (2): Or was it just survivor? Just

Malcolm Collins: into like, self sabotage and like hating each other almost immediately. And the male team was like all broy and just was like, Hey, let's figure out how to fish. Let's figure out how to hunt. Let's build a shelter. And the women were just, and they had to not like bailing out the, the female team so bad.

Put that together, put divide people based on ethnic group. It would go so viral. It would go so viral. Yes, you'd get a bunch of complaints at the studio, but it would go so viral and I, I it would go pretty. Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I feel like people would tune in just to be like, would you

Malcolm Collins: watch it? Would you be like, imagine, imagine if you could even like Team Korean or something, like have your little flag and everything.

Simone Collins (2): I mean, yeah, I mean, we kind of do it with the Olympics. You just wanna see it on, you know, some other.

Malcolm Collins: Non sports thing? Well, no, 'cause it's cheating. I mean, the US wins the Olympics with, with like, I, I wanna see it based on immigrant gr like, like specific ethnocultural groups, right? Like Right. Because

Simone Collins (2): like the USA also just attracts the best talent from all the other countries.

And then it gets to be like, oh, USA wins when it's really Oh, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: USA wins. Because no, if you win the Olympics for some other country at like running or something, the US a, it's like, Hey, come here, run for us. Right. You know? Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You'll be able to eat.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. It's true. Yeah. You, you sort of have like, maybe two people from ultimately the same genetic lineage being first and second place, but like USA wins because

Malcolm Collins: I, I never understand sports because so much of it is just genetics.

It's like, why are we, no, see, that's why,

Simone Collins (2): that's why we need the, what's his name who's doing the, the like. Roy rage version of the Olympics. What does he Oh yeah. We know we had

Malcolm Collins: on our podcast like the Olympics, but with steroids. Yeah. Episode he,

Simone Collins (2): what did he call them? The something Games. Games or something?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But anyway, it's gonna be happening apparently.

Simone Collins (2): Well, it was supposed to happen this summer. I wonder if it's already happened. Well, let's see. Steroid.

Malcolm Collins: Steroid Olympics. Okay, I'll go to the next one. Yeah. Amplification in modern society, media

Simone Collins (2): games. Sorry.

Malcolm Collins: So what, what, what, what happened?

Simone Collins (2): Did it

Malcolm Collins: happen?

Simone Collins (2): Looks like it's been moved to May, 2026.

Malcolm Collins: You gotta give people time to get all hyped up on their, their, I mean, it's

Simone Collins (2): to get the right regimen. It takes a while. You gotta, let's do it right. Let's do it right. I'm okay with that.

Malcolm Collins: I want kid fights like a b, c piece that had our kids fighting and you're like, every day is hunger games in our house.

I actually would not mind just put sock bops on kids, set 'em after each other in like a field. I mean, our kids caged

Simone Collins (2): in the

Malcolm Collins: crib. This is like a joke, but I used to go to rodeos as a kid in like rural Texas. Oh, they still do that?

Simone Collins (2): No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no. The kids are still doing rodeos. Oh yeah. Well you have the the.

The cattle cal. Oh. So what they do is before the show they release a cow like a calf that like runs around or like a pig, I think they do in some environments. And all of the kids run around in the mud, which is like where the, the horses are gonna be doing their thing. And try to catch it.

And, and it's, it is a very aggressive sort of a, a thing. And I want more of that. I, I find that more entertaining than the rodeo.

Simone Collins (2): Just, just more, you just want the Hunger Games. You just want tributes. I do. Why? Why can't I have the Hunger

Malcolm Collins: Games? This is all, this is, this is clearly unfair the way society is structured.

Simone Collins (2): People would volunteer. 100% people would volunteer. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Amplification. In modern society, media and social platforms exploit this for engagement, turning differences into threats and eroding trust. Well, hold on. If they are actively targeting a group that you are in, that's, that's saying, you should still trust them even when they target you.

That's a really effed up thing to be telling somebody. It can create self-fulfilling prophecies where perceived divisions become real ones worsening problems like climate denial or social unrest. It's like this is what's true and what you believe isn't true. And anybody who's a climate denialist, they're in this other camp.

I love, even in the AI's answer, it creates the other. But I recently saw a Reddit post about this where somebody was like, I can't believe, you know, my grandmother who raised me posted this and it was a meme about how a guy who had gotten a degree at like a fancy university and philosophy was about to have his power shut off by somebody who's earning a lot more and had gotten like an associate's degree.

From in like electronics, right? Like fixing, fixing like it's an electrician. Basically just being like, Hey, this is the path you wanna take. And they're like, oh, they're right. Trying to turn the working class against each other. And it's like, what? This guy was a philosophy degree as a working class who's working as a, as a associate professor.

He is not the working class. But you have identified him as such because you are trying to identify the blue collar workers as being not a group you are victimizing, but the same type of people as yourself when they are not the same type of people as yourself. Yeah. That's messed

Simone Collins (2): up.

Malcolm Collins: This is what I'm talking about here.

When they're like. AMPL amplification modern society that social media are, you know, you turn this to create group divides. They want to hide that these group divides are real and exacerbated by their self. It.

Simone Collins (3): Mm.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like, and this is the thing about us versus them and why it is so threatening to the urban monoculture because the us if you look at the new Right coalition, you know, you've got like the tech, right, like us who are, you know, like pro-gay marriage, pro all sorts of things that the right no longer opposes as like a mainstream party.

You know, I would support, you know, abortion at the level of like, you know, within the first few days. But, but I would support like stricter abortion access and it is available in any state right now.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Or in most states right now. Certainly my own state. So like my interests all align with the Republican party's interests.

You know, I, I, I may not support like. Forcing a Christian education on everyone. But I do want to get the weird trans stuff outta schools, which is what they're actually fighting for at like a, a, a government level right now. Right? So like my interests are perfectly overlapping with their interests right now.

And so. Even though we're very diverse, and this was actually shown in a, a graph that came out. If you look at the perspectives within the modern conservative party, it's like this giant circle right now.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Within the modern Democratic party. It's this very, very, very tight circle.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. We did an episode on this.

Yeah. Like the, the spiderwebs. They looked like spiderwebs.

Malcolm Collins: Did we

Simone Collins (2): ever

Malcolm Collins: publish that episode?

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, I think we did. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But the US versus Zim, but saying, oh, you can't create an US versus Zim dynamic, basically makes it so that you can't ally with people who are different from you. Because when I say US versus Zim, or I'm talking an us versus them concept, the US on my side includes like traditionalist Christians and Orthodox Jews and Amish and people.

Well, I think

Simone Collins (2): the funny thing though is when you look within the new, right, and you see all these different subgroups. One the left tries to frame it as, oh, it's fractured and it can barely hold together. And actually we are all, no, we're very friendly, but there is a little bit of that friendly sports team type rivalry.

There actually is us in theming them. I would argue. You know, like the Catholics going, yeah, you guys are going to hell for IVF. And we're like, yeah, you guys are kind of going for hell or not. You know, like. You're killing kids. Why not? And

Malcolm Collins: for people who don't understand what she means by saying that is we think that you are morally responsible for the differences in the timeline that your choices create.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So if you make a choice that prevents the human being who otherwise come to exist from coming to exist, you have functionally killed that human being. Yeah. Regardless if that happened before the egg was fertilized or not,

Simone Collins (2): and we have very animated, but genial and, and fun in, in that very like sports rivalry.

Style debates with these different groups who, and they express pride in their view, and we express pride in our view. And we, but we still talk and in, in exchange. And I, I do think that like, weirdly, the us versus them rivalry that is functional is within the new, the new right. And a really good example of toxic US versus them mentality mm-hmm.

Is, is between the right and the left. Maybe the issue is that us versus them only works when there's exchange. And if there isn't, then it becomes toxic. What do you think?

Malcolm Collins: What do you mean exchange?

Simone Collins (2): Collaboration, interplay, commerce. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: On our, my Little Pony episode, that's sort of what we show, right?

Like the Pegasus and the unicorns and the earth ponies all may be different in their capacities, but that doesn't mean they can't be friends and work together towards a common out. Come against groups that are genuinely opposed to all of their interests.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And, and that's what we're dealing with today.

You know, in this episode I've talked about like, why would diversity have any value if people aren't really different? And while I believe diversity is a thing of value, the analogy I use is this, like ingredients. It has value like not, not in a absolute sense, a meal isn't better because it has more diversity, because it has more ingredients.

It's the right mix of ingredients to create a dish. Mm-hmm. And a chef is better off for more ingredients existing in the world, but you don't need them here in my backyard, right?

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that, what we create when we have an US, and this is what's really dangerous, is the clear thing about us versus Zim is us versus Zim rarely creates the US around just your cultural group, right?

When us versus them thinking happens most frequently. It's because the US is combining multiple groups into a dish instead of just one group of versus them, like the urban monoculture doesn't need us versus them thinking because it's, there's a right way of doing things and there's a wrong way of doing things, and our way of doing things is the right way.

You know, IE like the AI being like, well, you wouldn't want them not to believe in manmade global climate change. Right? When, you know, if you actually look at the data there is. Some reasons to doubt this. And, and the people who doubt it aren't like crazy or anything. This is something that I think we should genuinely be talking about.

But they, they won't do that. They're just like, these people are stupid savages. Don't listen to them. But when you get into us versus them thinking, what's really happening is you're building a coalition. Because I'm saying us isn't just people like me and what's my views, it's people who are opposed to the them, and you are the them.

Speaker 4: Hmm,

Malcolm Collins: because you're the one who has chosen, like, a great example is Latin Americans, right? Like for Latin Americans have us versus them thinking they would have all Latin American community, they'd be like, we're, we're different. We're different cultures. We have different stereotypes about us. IE we're different in many ways.

But we take pride in that and we work together against those who would collectively disadvantage us because of this central reason, right? Mm-hmm. And, and that creates us versus them. So I think that us versus them is actually almost sort of necessary to live a moral life and protect yourself unless you just are lucky enough to be born into or have cowardly enough to have converted into the dominant cultural group within a region.

Simone Collins (2): Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I, I think though with the rise of ai, as demographic collapse plays out, as we see dependency ratio cascades undermine governments, and more centralized run societies, more centrally run societies. We are going to see, as we keep saying the rise of techno feudalism, we're going to see more balkinization of culture and communities and I think we're going to see more us versus them mentality.

And what I hope that we'll see is us versus them mentality in the context of trade commerce, healthy rivalry, competition exchange, and you know, learning from each other. Instead of this a form of balkinization that leads to raids and attempted annihilation in genocide. So I think this is a really important subject and I think people should be thinking strategically about how they with their community or their culture or their religion contextualize and work with others.

You can look at how, I mean, Jews that have been victimized for so long nevertheless work. Do commerce with other cultures. I mean, they're very strategic about how they, I guess, exchange with the larger world and how they like, where they lean in with just their own communities. But I think these are things that people should be thinking about and there's definitely a way to do this, right?

And those, there's a way to do this. Really to your detriment. To the world's detriment, to humanity's detriment.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I love you to Dec Simone. You're a very special lady. Do you have any final thoughts on why we need to, I mean, it's not just us versus them thinking, which is good. It's stereotypes, which are good, like.

How, look, you, you watch a show that celebrates a culture, like I think a, a show that does a very good job of celebrating Colombian culture is oh, what's that latest? Where that recent Disney show?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, Encanto. Is that Colombian culture?

Malcolm Collins: Colombian culture, yeah. It specifically takes place in Columbia.

It does.

Simone Collins (2): Oh.

Malcolm Collins: So you, you watch the show right? It is all stereotypes, but stereotypes are good. That's what we take pride in. You know, I'm from the, the, the redneck, like in puritan cultural groups, a bunch of stereotypes. That's what cultural pride is, is having pride in the stereotypes about your people.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, right. Like I said, like if you, if you look at all the, the comedic roastings of different groups, that they're performed by people of those groups and they're amazing.

Malcolm Collins: When women in monoculture attempts to eradicate. Your ability to even see your group within stereotypes. 'cause remember, they don't just hate the quote unquote negative stereotypes.

They hate the positive ones too. Like Asians being good at math, their karate or something like that, right? Mm-hmm. Like all of these, you, you can't have any of these. And when they do that, what they're actually erasing is your ability to have pride in the ways that you are different from other people.

Simone Collins (2): True? Yeah. The only thing that you can be proud of is the extent to which you assimilate with a culture that is. It is very artificial, not succinct. Well, when they,

Malcolm Collins: when they remove all of those sources of pride, they then say, so, so you're like, what? I can't be proud of anything. And it's like, well, you can be proud of what you're attracted to.

What, what gives you pleasure hedonism, right? Like, that works. And then you, and then you get sucked into the culture, right? Like it's a very effective strategy. They, they shame any pride you have in your cultural stereotypes, be they positive or negative. You know, I, and, and I, and, and people know I take pride in boast within my culture.

I often talk about the violent nature of the backwoods people. You know, scooping out, sharpening their fingernails to scoop out people's eyeballs, right? Like, there, there, there, there, there's many, I don't actually, I don't think any group today has a stereotype that negatively violent. But, and I'm, and I'm like, that's f*****g cool, man.

But the point I'm making here, I'm sure

Simone Collins (2): people will come up with ideas.

Malcolm Collins: It's removing your ability to have pride in yourself is what they're removing when they, they remove stereotypes. They don't say that this is what they're doing, but it's functionally what they're doing. Mm-hmm. And no, no. Grand conspirator came up with this.

It's just the groups that adopted these beliefs had an easier time converting people into it because they erased your ability to have pride in this. And then they said, but you can still have pride in In, in Why? Right. And we have a parade for you. It's called the Pride Parade. Come on, join it.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, wow.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway,

Simone Collins (2): I think a lot of these things will change. Shall I make you pot stickers for dinner?

Malcolm Collins: You know, I'd love pot stickers tonight.

Simone Collins (2): Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And

Simone Collins (2): unless you want pizza, because I'm doing an oven night, everything else is gonna be in the oven.

Malcolm Collins: Not pizza night. Pizza. Pizza to pizza.

Simone Collins (2): You want Ry on your

Malcolm Collins: pizza.

Whatever you wanna put on the top of it,

Simone Collins (2): just surprise you with Indian spices.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins (2): And Dees g Andoni, of

Malcolm Collins: course. MSGI do not know how Americans went so long making pizza without MSG. What were they thinking?

Simone Collins (2): Well, and with cutting it with, without. What is this pizza wheel nonsense when you just can get a pair of scissors for the love.

Malcolm Collins: For the love.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. I, I just, your experience in Korea, I feel like the most valuable thing that I've taken away from it personally is the scissors. I love the scissors for food cutting. Scissors for food cutting.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I know, I know. But I love that. Yeah, I saw that in Chris. I was like, oh, ST.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah, it changed everything.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. I love you, esam. I love you too. You're a great wife, a very, very good wife. You're a good husband. I honestly, you're so good. I'm not even gonna beat you today.

Simone Collins (2): Aw, what a shame

Malcolm Collins: did we get? Did we get too close to saying that somebody having pride in being white is okay in this episode?

Too close comment.

Simone Collins (2): No comment. We didn't

Malcolm Collins: say that, by the way. I, I think it's horrible. I think anyone who has white pride is a horrible, disgusting human being. And well, I just

Simone Collins (2): think it's, it's weird. I, because. What is what? Well, no,

Malcolm Collins: you should have pride in your specific group, but understand that there might be a larger alliance of groups that are being victimized for the same reason you're victimized.

Mm-hmm. I mean, when somebody denies me a job, they're not doing it because I'm from the backwoods cultural tradition. That's right. Or because I'm from the puritan cultural tradition, they're doing it because they're the color of my skin.

Simone Collins (2): Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's helping me to better understand this.

Yeah. And the, the whole LA Tanks concept.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, like, look, the la the, the Catholic used to burn my ancestors at the stake, right? Like we don't have a history of an alliance, but right now, well, I mean, yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I think in general, I may be wrong about this, but probably the vast majority of violence that has been subject to any particular ethnic or cultural group has been from people within.

Those groups, the call is normally coming from inside the house. Yeah, so the, the intergroup hate is widely covered, but not the big source of the problem. So.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you toes, Simone. You're great. Bye

Simone Collins (2): Malcolm. Bye. I'll call you when,

Malcolm Collins: oh, we're gonna do a mix of potstickers, right? Some veggie, some. I thought we were doing

Simone Collins (2): pizza.

We can do pot pizza.

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. Pizza, not pot stickers. Get the pizza. Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a little bit of like sacrificial freezer mystery chicken as well. 'cause I think you're just gonna throw it away. No,

Malcolm Collins: no, no.

Simone Collins (2): You're gonna wanna throw it away. Well then should I just feed it directly to the chickens without, no,

Malcolm Collins: no.

Just what are you, did you already defrost it?

Simone Collins (2): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Then do it tomorrow. Just, you're not gonna

Simone Collins (2): want to eat it though anyway, so I'm just like,

Malcolm Collins: no, I don't want you to over feed me. I hate when you make dishes that are too big because you're, do you just

Simone Collins (2): want one quarter of a pizza? That's so little food. I don't want that much food.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Look, Simone, if if you, if you are going to do it, then do it and do the rice and everything like that. No, I'm not

Simone Collins (2): gonna do the rice. No. I was just gonna, I'll, I'll, I'll save the chicken for another night, I guess. But. I'll go with the PO stickers.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins (2): I'm, I'm imposing my pregnancy mindset on you.

I'm, I'm ravenous. Can I do a

Malcolm Collins: third of pizza instead of a quarter?

Simone Collins (2): Oh, you want more?

Malcolm Collins: A third, but not aquar. No, not half. Half is too big.

Simone Collins (2): Okay. Yeah. At least then I don't feel like I'm, well, I'm also doing sourdough. Would you just like fresh sourdough with jam instead of a third of a pizza?

Malcolm Collins: The sourdough is.

Oh yeah, sourdough is jam is great. Oh, can you put cheese on top of it?

Simone Collins (2): I would have to cut it and then toast it, but I can totally do that.

Malcolm Collins: Oh no, no, no, no, no. Then just the pizza and the sourdough is jam if you, maybe a bit more than a quarter, but not a full third. And that's what I'm having tonight.

That was a sourdough.

Simone Collins (2): Sounds good.

Malcolm Collins: Alright. Love you.

Simone Collins (2): I love you too.

Simone Collins: sexy women with zebra face paint hanging in golden cages to figure out what to do, what to create. Makes sense. Sounds fun. We'll, see, I'm just, yeah, I, I think I've watched the, what does the fox say with her children so many times.

Malcolm Collins: What, why they, they love this video.

Simone Collins (2): The what does the, yeah. You know, what does the fox say that that's like their favorite song of all time.

That's why they all want Fox Plushies. That's why they all wanna dress up like foxes. That's why Indie second words are NN dinging. NN.

Malcolm Collins: That's where the Fox plus she came from. I should have known.

Simone Collins (2): Well, I mean the Fox Plus she came from. From Steve and Minka, but they loved it because it's the fox.

Malcolm Collins: And what does the fox say?

What does, well, they know what the Fox says. Says it's a great children's song now that I think about it. You know, it's funny that it became popular as like a song for adults, but like it's, it's more of a children's song.

Simone Collins (2): Oh, I mean, and Indie loves it is she's like learning words because it's very, like I said, like her.

She she'll just like randomly be like, ding, dinging, ding. She'll. Yeah, she speaks Fox. She

Malcolm Collins: can, she can speak at Fox is not before she speaks

Simone Collins (2): human. Yeah. But no, really, she's a Pokemon because her first actual real words are Indie.

Malcolm Collins: Indy. Indy. She points to herself Indy. She mostly say,

Simone Collins (2): mommy,

Malcolm Collins: you're trying to, my mom, sorry.

My wife tried to get her to understand. Who she is. And so she'd point to Indie and she'd go, indie Mommy. Mm-hmm. Daddy.

Simone Collins (3): Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And she can get indie and no one else. Indy.

Simone Collins (3): Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It's not mommy or daddy first. Actually, that's kind of wild because like mama and dad are supposed to be like easy words for kids to say, yeah, no, get first.

No. Very clearly her first word is her own name and she knows exactly what she's talking about. There's no

Simone Collins (2): ambiguity. She, she'll never say it pointing at anything but herself. It's amazing.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins (2): oh, I

Malcolm Collins: like that. That's the type of kid I wanna raise. Come on.

Simone Collins (2): Pride, man. Yeah. People are like, how could you name your daughter industry whenever I, I.

Post a, some like Instagram photo that has her in it or something. And I mentioned it, you named your child industry. She seems pretty happy about it. People.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, she seems, she seems to dig it. All of our kids like their names, to be honest. 'Cause I asked 'em, I'm like, do you, would you want another name?

And they're like, no, this is

Simone Collins (3): no, no. Text

Malcolm Collins: is the next one. Text. Get a good old fashioned American name. It's good. All right.

Come back this year.

Did.

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