The waterline model: snorkel before scuba

Molly Graham has worked for some of tech’s most effective leaders, including Mark Zuckerberg, Sheryl Sandberg, Chamath Palihapitiya, and Bret Taylor. Today she leads Glue Club, a community for leaders navigating rapid scale, growth, and change. She’s best known for her “Give away your Legos” framework and her collection of practical mental models for leading through hypergrowth.

We discuss:

1. “Give away your Legos”: a framework for scaling yourself as a leader

2. “J-curves vs. stairs”: the two paths of career growth, and why you should pick the scarier path

3. “The waterline model” for diagnosing team problems (and why you should “snorkel before you scuba”)

4. Six rules for creating effective goals (and aligning everyone around them)

5. Rules of thumb for leading through rapid scale and change

6. Her biggest leadership lessons from Mark Zuckerberg, Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Sheryl Sandberg, and Bret Taylor

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-high-growth-handbook-molly-graham

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/182877855/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Molly Graham:

• X: https://x.com/molly_g

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham

• Substack: https://mollyg.substack.com

• Website: https://glueclub.com

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Molly Graham

(04:28) Molly’s background at Google, Facebook, Quip, and CZI

(11:29) The “Give away your Legos” framework

(16:44) Managing your inner monster

(19:49) When not to give away your Legos

(21:28) Embracing a long career

(23:25) The J-curve vs. stairs approach to career growth

(32:00) The gift of knowing yourself

(34:28) Learning to be a professional idiot

(38:30) The waterline model: snorkel before you scuba

(47:16) Six rules for creating strong alignment around goals

(57:15) Rules of thumb for leading through rapid scale

(01:07:49) Investing in high performers vs. low performers

(01:10:54) Lessons from Zuckerberg, Sandberg, and Bret Taylor

(1:21:15) Pivoting from ambition to purpose

(1:26:32) Finding stability in instability

(01:29:44) Final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Making an impact through authenticity and curiosity | Ami Vora (CPO at Faire, ex-WhatsApp, FB, IG): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/authenticity-and-curiosity-ami-vora

• Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652

• Elliot Schrage on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliotschrage

• Quip: https://quip.com

• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor

• Chan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com

• 10 contrarian leadership truths every leader needs to hear | Matt MacInnis (Rippling): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-contrarian-leadership-truths

• ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups

• The Muppets: https://muppets.disney.com

• Sara Caldwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saramcaldwell

• J-Curves vs. Stairs: Two Approaches to Career Growth: https://mollyg.substack.com/p/j-curve

• Forget the corporate ladder—winners take risks: https://www.ted.com/talks/molly_graham_forget_the_corporate_ladder_winners_take_risks

• Chamath Palihapitiya on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chamath

• Lori Goler on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-goler-6b96921

• Joseph Campbell’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/192665-the-cave-you-fear-to-enter-holds-the-treasure-you

• Zevi Arnovitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zev-arnovitz

• Peopling 101: The Waterline Model: https://christinehaskell.com/blog/peopling-101-the-waterline-model

• Introduction to NVC: https://www.cnvc.org/learn/what-is-nvc

• I hate OKRs... and other thoughts about goal setting: https://mollyg.substack.com/p/i-hate-okrs-and-other-thoughts-about

• Lessons from scaling Stripe | Claire Hughes Johnson (former COO of Stripe): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-scaling-stripe-tactics

• James Clear’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9614600-problem-1-winners-and-losers-have-the-same-goals

• Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html

• Stripe: https://stripe.com

• Patrick Collison on X: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrickcollison

• John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision

• Seth Godin’s best tactics for building remarkable products, strategies, brands and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/seth-godins-tactics-for-building-remarkable-products

• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow

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Recommended books:

• The Artist’s Way: https://www.amazon.com/Artists-Way-25th-Anniversary/dp/0143129252

• Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-People-Tactics-Management-Building/dp/1953953212

• Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.