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One dream is a subscription service that gives you access to hundreds of courses and thousands of lectures. Each course is like 12 to 24 lectures, each about 30 minutes long. You get a free one month trial if you access it through thi show. So go to ondriam w o n d r i u m dot com, slash shermer, s a r m e r, and gets a free trial. Give it a try. I use it all the time. It's a fantastic source of intellectual content.

Michael Shermer speaks with scientist, educator, activist, and accomplished author, Fritjof Capra, about the evolution of his thinking over five decades. In this conversation, based on Capra’s book, Patterns of Connection, Shermer and Capra discuss: what it means to be spiritual in an age of science, nuclear energy and why Capra thinks we don’t need it and Shermer thinks we do, 50 years of progress or regress, limitations of models and theories of reality, limitations of analogies between western physics and eastern mysticism, mind and consciousness, and why Capra is hopeful for the future of humanity.