Recruiting tradeoffs: talent vs. character

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My Guest: Mike Deegan just led Denison University Baseball to their first College World Series appearance in program history. He's been named Coach of the Year in back-to-back years and is the all-time winningest coach in school history. In this conversation, Mike shares how he uses Mudita to build culture, how to help people get out of slumps, and why discipline and consistency are superpowers.

Mudita is a vicarious joy. Can I be happy for another's success as if it's my own? To me, that is like the secret sauce of life. Obviously, in a sports team, not everyone can be the star. One of the biggest misconceptions is that the star rotates. Yeah, you need a superstar to compete at the highest levels, but to win, you're going to need pinch runners, you're going to need the guy laying a big block. It's going to take everyone. It's really celebrating everyone's contribution.

In recruiting, I ask parents: Can you be happy for another kid's success as if it's your own? If your neighbor gets a new car, are you happy for them? Or do you say, "Oh, I wish. I bet his parents bought that for him." There are just different ways to show up for people, where you can just have joy. By pouring yourself into others, especially in sports, I think it frees you up to perform your best.

Envy is a natural feeling. I don't want anyone to feel that envy from me. I think what we're saying is that envy is a natural feeling. Wanting to do great yourself, those are very natural, and I want people to live in that space. But can we just stop it and be a little bit more intentional and just celebrate what other people are doing well?

Spot the good first. As a consultant, there are two ways you can do things. One is to find the negative, and that's really easy to do. But I try to go and spot the good first. There's plenty of time to nitpick later on. Find some opportunities to help people grow.

People love to talk about themselves. My wife is very quiet, a great listener, and people love her. She has a million best friends, and no one knows it because she doesn't talk a whole lot. She just listens. If you can just listen and get people to talk about what they're passionate about, it's a life secret. You can tell when someone's really passionate about what they're doing, and you can tell when they're on the fence because they speed up when they talk, they get a little excited.

Curiosity is a great way to show love. If you approach it from envy, we don't unpack the cool story. But if you lead with curiosity and not envy, it unpacks everything. I do think it takes a level of self-awareness and comfort in your own skin.

How to build self-awareness: Read, write, and get around wise people. If you read a decent amount, if you write (and that was my forcing function, to actually write and put thought to paper), and then get around wise people and just have conversations, I think you'll start building out the awareness of who you are and what you value.

A systems thinker builds frameworks that outlast individuals. It's someone who can build out frameworks that are built to put people and the organization in the best spot to win and be successful. It's a framework that outlasts individuals. Coaches may leave or players may leave, but if you have a system built out that it can sustain losing certain individuals, because things are cranking and you can repeat the work. You can do iterations and quickly test if you're getting closer or further from your goals.

I almost try to talk people out of coming here. The most underrated thing in our recruiting is when they sit with me, I almost try to talk people out of coming here. I'll say, "Hey, what's the main driver?" If they say playing time, I'm like, "Hey, that's great. That's an awesome goal, but I wouldn't come here for that. We're going to play our best players. But that's not why you come to Denison. You come to be a part of something bigger than yourself, and there are all these other places where you're going to have a much better shot at that." I'm always listening in on what they value and trying to challenge it. Almost get people to self-select out.

The better your culture is, you can take chances on people. It's like Randy Moss and the New England Patriots. Tom Brady was an alpha, and you could bring people in and take a risk and see if they can conform to the culture a little bit. When you have things in place, our locker room was phenomenal. People would say, "Hey, I don't know, this kid has some red flags." I'm like, "Red flags, like he's a serial killer? Or like red flag,s like he's super competitive?" The locker room would take care of a lot of that. If there's something built out that you feel pretty strongly about, I think you can take in some of these high-risk, high-reward people because they can't damage the culture like you would think they can. Early on in that tenure, I was very, very careful with this. But now we can take some chances on people if the DNA is right.

The lack of seriousness pushed people out. When I took over, I'm the opposite of the guy I played for. And every time someone quit, I would just say thank you. And I meant that too because we were going in a certain direction. There was talent. It needed more seriousness. We had enough talent that it was going to allow us to compete at a conference level. I think it's amazing when you can just put boundaries and guardrails and point people in the right direction. We just provided a little structure, a little discipline.

The DNA of great teams: Roles, sacrifice, discipline, leadership, joy. Everyone has a role and to beat objective expectations. When good meets good, you have got to understand that every role is essential to the cause. Status goes away. Second, we're in this together. There's no prima donna. I think that's what happens with championship teams. For us to compete on a national level, our guys do miss out on a lot. Grades may suffer. There are trade-offs with this thing. Then I hear discipline. Discipline and consistency is a superpower. The people that I see that really excel in the professional baseball world they seem to have a maturity about them at a much younger age. And that comes with discipline and consistency. Then leadership. There's going to be someone that's navigating the ship. In my beautiful world, it would be where that person's not an egomaniac. They're not in front. They're just waiting for everyone to get out. The last thing is joy. People tend to enjoy what they're doing. They do it with a smile on their face.

"Don't hire for when you think times are good. Hire for the person you wanna be around when times are bad because they're coming."

An example of a great team outside of sports: The Chilean miners found roles quickly and stuck together. They had food for two days but rationed it out. They had a spiritual leader, medical guy, someone to keep them on task. Everyone had a specific role and they performed it.

How you talk to your teammates is how you should talk to yourself. I had a conversation with a kid that I really admire on our team and I said, "Hey man, I never hear you talk to your teammates like you talk to yourself. Give yourself some grace." Being really hard on yourself can also be a cop out because there are ways to channel that. Sometimes people will say "I'm a perfectionist, or that's just who I am." Come on man. A perfectionist to me, they put an insane amount of work to earn the right to be. I think we use that term pretty lightly sometimes.

Confidence is built through evidence. Ryan's self-talk before a keynote sounds like this, "What an opportunity to create some evidence."

How to help a hitter get out of a slump: Simplify and control the controllables. When a player's in a slump, they're probably working harder than they've ever worked in their life. But I think it's almost like they're working aimlessly. So what I try to do is simplify. I had a hitter once, he's trying everything. I gave him one swing thought for two weeks. Just get the barrel to the ball. Don't worry about launch angle, don't worry about exit velo. Can you just put good wood on the ball? We're going to control what we can control. And slowly you start seeing some results and that evidence starts compounding and you get your mojo back.

You gotta be intentional with your energy before high performance. As a coach, how you show up is going to be really, really important. I saw Texas A&M's coach say you have to be the opposite of what the moment requires. While everyone's excited, you need to be the calm. And then when the proverbial is hitting the fan, you have to be the one with optimism. Getting yourself in the right mental frame to handle high performance is required of a coach and a leader.

Baseball teaches you to stay calm for three hours. You don't play baseball at 130 heartbeat. It's more of Can you get that thing down? And anything I do to increase it myself, I'm going against what it takes to be a successful player. People can think baseball is boring, but what you're seeing is people trying to stay calm for three hours.

Does that intensity actually lead to results? It's just basic stoicism. Baseball is the ultimate controlling what you can control and releasing what you can't. I don't know if this next ball's coming to me, but what do I do now? I can control my breathing. I control my first pitch prep step. What can you control? And I would challenge you to think, does that intensity or that emotion, does it actually lead to results or not? If it's helping you be the best version of yourself, go ahead and do it. But sometimes that overstimulation, that over emotion, it's probably just putting a lot of anxiety on your people. Just regulate, stay calm and execute.

What does the team need from you right now? I think a good analogy is a cornerman in boxing. My dad used to always say, Watch a cornerman in boxing because some people you gotta smack. Some people say, "Come on champ. You're the best. You're the best. You're the best." When you're walking out there, you're trying to think, what does the team need from you right now? What message? If I'm a mirror, what do they need to see? Do they need to see calm, they need to see reassurance? Are we playing a little timid and scared? And maybe you're trying to jolt them a little bit with some energy and some choice words. There's an intentionality to it. You're trying to speak some stuff into existence, even if you're making stuff up. You acknowledge it, and then you also try to point them in a direction for improvement.

Life throws haymakers at you all the time. I think that's the greatest gift that we can give people through sports. Most of us experience adversity along the way. It's this unique ability to just keep moving. You reflect, you try to get better. You give yourself some grace, you move on. You just keep working through that process. As simple as it may sound to us, I don't think many people can get there.

"Setbacks are temporary. I bounce back quickly." I write this down in my lineup card. You're creating evidence. It's something very simple, but I'm going to take a punch and I'll bounce back quickly. I think those are just good reminders in life. This happens. We're going to respond.

1. Mike practices Mudita by being genuinely happy for others' success without envy. Think of someone in your life who recently had a big win (promotion, new house, achievement). Were you genuinely happy for them, or did envy creep in? What would it look like to celebrate them more fully?
2. He says "Don't hire for when you think times are good. Hire for the person you wanna be around when times are bad." Who on your current team would you want in the foxhole with you during a crisis, and what qualities make them that person?
3. Mike asks himself before big moments: "What does the team need from me right now?" rather than just reacting emotionally. Think about a high-pressure situation coming up in your life. What will your team/family/colleagues need from you in that moment, and how can you prepare to show up that way?

More Learning

#217 - JJ Reddick: You've Never Arrived, You're Always Becoming

#281 - George Raveling: Eight Decades of Wisdom

#509 - Buzz Williams: The 9 Daily Disciplines

Audio Timestamps:

02:11 Implementing Mudita in Teams

06:22 Curiosity and Spotting the Good

14:54 Recruiting and Hiring Philosophy

20:36 Building a Winning Culture

24:46 DNA of Great Teams

27:55 The Importance of Team Sacrifice

28:53 Leadership and Joy in Tough Times

29:42 Handling Adversity in Sports

31:06 The Role of Self-Talk in Performance

36:52 Staying Calm Under Pressure

42:26 Lessons from Sports for Life

46:12 The Value of Resilience and Bouncing Back

48:29 EOPC