Daniel Treisman: I appreciate you sharing a lot about the history of how these ideas came to be. And I, in particular, appreciate you pointing out the influence of James Hillman. So he wrote this book. We've had 100 years of psychotherapy. And his subtitle, I think, was like, the world's getting worse.Treisman: A similar kind of critique could be levied against what I sometimes jokingly call the spiritual industrial complex. That there is a kind of dialogue that it entered into with Western culture, say, 60 years ago.

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